Scottish players in action 21/22

[Diamond Scot]

11 hours ago, syecosse said:

I read that they have about 8 or 9 lads 16 or under that are being tried to be poached away by clubs down south or Europe, I heard that a number have signed contracts but a few haven't, could be a good thing for the Scottish team if they are able to keep producing quality young Scots think I read that they have kept a very talented Belgium youth coach there to oversee the system. Jack Whylie being one.

Its obviously a good thing when clubs are producing Scottish youth but under no circumstances is staying with Rangers beyond the age of 17 a good thing for Scotland. If they are like Gilmour and possibly Wilson then thats the ideal scenario.

And before anybody talks about all the talented youth coming through at Rangers. When was the last player that came through that went onto become a 1st team regular. 

I watch alot of Scottish football and more of Rangers and Celtic than probably any other clubs but I genuinely cant think of the last player. Are we talking Charlie Adam or Allan McGregor?

[theabsentee]

2 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Its obviously a good thing when clubs are producing Scottish youth but under no circumstances is staying with Rangers beyond the age of 17 a good thing for Scotland. If they are like Gilmour and possibly Wilson then thats the ideal scenario.

And before anybody talks about all the talented youth coming through at Rangers. When was the last player that came through that went onto become a 1st team regular. 

I watch alot of Scottish football and more of Rangers and Celtic than probably any other clubs but I genuinely cant think of the last player. Are we talking Charlie Adam or Allan McGregor?

I don't think what's happened in the past is that relevant. Clubs anywhere in the world will play their youth if they are good enough simple as that.  Obviously if your with a big club with loads of money that demand instant success you have to be that much better to get a chance as a youngster but the opportunity is still there..

   There's plenty examples of young players breaking through jotted around the richer clubs in Europe.

  If your point is due to the standard of Scottish football & coaching then fair enough , perhaps you feel our young players should get out of Scotland asap?  Though if you're opinion is based only on Rangers poor track record of bringing through youngsters I think it's past tense &  based on a time when they had money & filled the team with foreign imports. Both old firm clubs are still doing that of course but it appears to be Rangers perhaps partly due to financial restrictions that are investing more time on their youth system & long may that continue not only for them but for all our clubs.

 

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

8 hours ago, theabsentee said:

I don't think what's happened in the past is that relevant. Clubs anywhere in the world will play their youth if they are good enough simple as that.  Obviously if your with a big club with loads of money that demand instant success you have to be that much better to get a chance as a youngster but the opportunity is still there..

   There's plenty examples of young players breaking through jotted around the richer clubs in Europe.

  If your point is due to the standard of Scottish football & coaching then fair enough , perhaps you feel our young players should get out of Scotland asap?  Though if you're opinion is based only on Rangers poor track record of bringing through youngsters I think it's past tense &  based on a time when they had money & filled the team with foreign imports. Both old firm clubs are still doing that of course but it appears to be Rangers perhaps partly due to financial restrictions that are investing more time on their youth system & long may that continue not only for them but for all our clubs.

 

The problem for Celtic and Rangers now is that very few believe that. It was fine to stay there as a youth player when those two were paying similar wages to 16 year olds as teams down south, with probably a similar success level in terms of bringing through their own players. Now though, most big (and many not so big) English clubs will be paying many multiples of the salaries Celtic and rangers can with superior coaching and facilities to boot. The decision is becoming much easier for our best young players  with no real notable success stories for Celtic and rangers to point at. I have no idea if the conversion rate is higher or lower down south but it’s unarguable that the best produced down there is better than the best up here. We like to mock some of the outcomes of players that go down there, but I bet the likes of Islam Feruz is quite happy with his decision. He’s a millionaire failed footballer rather than a failed footballer with no money. The trickle has become a stream and I see no particular reason why this will change.

Outside of Celtic and rangers things are even worse. Not only is the pay pitiful, but the facilities are shite and the outcomes poor. Stay here earning poverty wages with little chance of progression to first team football or take your chance down south for bigger wages. Again, although there are some notable successes over the last decade or so, the vast majority of promising youth gets little chance at first team football whilst clubs trip over themselves to bring in average journeymen from abroad in the hope they can sell them on for profit. It’s bizarre to be honest as they have already invested heavily (relatively speaking) to produce their own youth players who with a bit of gametime would be worth plenty in the market themselves.

[ghorne67]

The facilities are far from shite these days. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd, Dundee, Aberdeen all have excellent facilities these days. The Oriam, Toryglen, Caird Park are all cracking as well. Obviously way behind the academy facilities down south....but then I doubt Croatia, Uruguay, Denmark etc are littered with 5 star St George Park-esque training complexes either.

[Diamond Scot]

10 hours ago, theabsentee said:

I don't think what's happened in the past is that relevant. Clubs anywhere in the world will play their youth if they are good enough simple as that.  Obviously if your with a big club with loads of money that demand instant success you have to be that much better to get a chance as a youngster but the opportunity is still there..

   There's plenty examples of young players breaking through jotted around the richer clubs in Europe.

  If your point is due to the standard of Scottish football & coaching then fair enough , perhaps you feel our young players should get out of Scotland asap?  Though if you're opinion is based only on Rangers poor track record of bringing through youngsters I think it's past tense &  based on a time when they had money & filled the team with foreign imports. Both old firm clubs are still doing that of course but it appears to be Rangers perhaps partly due to financial restrictions that are investing more time on their youth system & long may that continue not only for them but for all our clubs.

 

Whats happened in the past is relevent as its a good indicator of what might happen in the future. For example pretty much all clubs outside the OF have brought through multiple youth players into their 1st teams over the past 10 years. Rangers have zero (unless im mistaken). Celtic have Tierney and Forrest abit longer ago. For the avoidance of doubt im taking about 1st team players, not the likes of Ralston or Welsh who have played 1st team games but have never beem 1st choice and very unlikely ever to be 1st choice.

I posted in another thread a while back giving examples for top 5 clubs in England and the youth team players they have brought through. This was to demonstate that its gor nothing to do with demands to win or having resources to buy ready made players. All of these clubs had multiple examples. Trent Alexander Arnold played in a Champions League final at 19 for example but for some reason Rangers dont think they can trust their most promising similarly aged players to come on at 3-1 up against Kilmarnock who are down to 10 men!!

Its a mindset and culture of the OF clubs. They have the ability to scoop up Scotlands best young talent but then create no pathway to get them jnto the 1st team. Multiple get into the 1st team squad and make the odd appearence but none are given a run in the side.

Take Devine for example. Promising right back who came into the side playing left back because both 1st choice left backs were injured. Performed very well and got motm in at least one game. Barosic gets fit again and Devine gets dropped. Now that might seem sensible given he was playing out of position but you might think that he had proven himself worthy of replacing Tav as a sub late on in games or starting at home in the cup to mid table Championship side Partick but no. Hasnt been seen since.

As others have said. Its no surprise youngsters are now heading south at first opportunity. I remain convinced that if Gilmour had stayed at Rangers that he wouldnt be a 1st team reguarler by now in the same way I have zero confidence that any of Devine, Lowry, King, McCrorie or the boy who made his debut at the weekend will be 1st choice players at any stage of their Rangers career.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

1 hour ago, ghorne67 said:

The facilities are far from shite these days. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd, Dundee, Aberdeen all have excellent facilities these days. The Oriam, Toryglen, Caird Park are all cracking as well. Obviously way behind the academy facilities down south....but then I doubt Croatia, Uruguay, Denmark etc are littered with 5 star St George Park-esque training complexes either.

There are certainly some decent enough facilities in Scotland, but there are plenty not so good too. Only Celtic and Rangers have anything approaching the kind of facilities they have down south. The next best, Oriam, doesn't belong to Hearts and is shared with other sports as well as the general public. Hibs, as another example, spent £3m on their purpose built facility. A team like Man City can (and allegedly have) spent over £200m on theirs. But its not just the mega-clubs (take these figures with a pinch of salt but they are broadly accurate), Wolves spent £70m, Burnley £12m, Leicester £130m, Southampton £40m. The list is endless - to put it into even clearer context, £3m less than most League 1 clubs are spending on their training grounds. Scottish clubs have nothing like the facilities of those in England and when combined with the significantly better coaches and pay it really is a simple decision for young players up here to leave. If the first team opportunities were significantly better I am sure more would stay, but they aren't so they don't.

[Clyde1998]

1 hour ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

The problem for Celtic and Rangers now is that very few believe that. It was fine to stay there as a youth player when those two were paying similar wages to 16 year olds as teams down south, with probably a similar success level in terms of bringing through their own players. Now though, most big (and many not so big) English clubs will be paying many multiples of the salaries Celtic and rangers can with superior coaching and facilities to boot. The decision is becoming much easier for our best young players  with no real notable success stories for Celtic and rangers to point at. I have no idea if the conversion rate is higher or lower down south but it’s unarguable that the best produced down there is better than the best up here. We like to mock some of the outcomes of players that go down there, but I bet the likes of Islam Feruz is quite happy with his decision. He’s a millionaire failed footballer rather than a failed footballer with no money. The trickle has become a stream and I see no particular reason why this will change.

Outside of Celtic and rangers things are even worse. Not only is the pay pitiful, but the facilities are shite and the outcomes poor. Stay here earning poverty wages with little chance of progression to first team football or take your chance down south for bigger wages. Again, although there are some notable successes over the last decade or so, the vast majority of promising youth gets little chance at first team football whilst clubs trip over themselves to bring in average journeymen from abroad in the hope they can sell them on for profit. It’s bizarre to be honest as they have already invested heavily (relatively speaking) to produce their own youth players who with a bit of gametime would be worth plenty in the market themselves.

Just going through those who've been in the national team in the past year, recived at least one cap, and are twenty-six or younger. Based on what I can work out, the clubs they were contracted to when they made their senior debut were:

• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Aberdeen (2): Scott McKenna, Calvin Ramsay
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Ardeer Thistle (1): Ross Stewart
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Celtic (2): Anthony Ralston; Kieran Tierney
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Chelsea (1): Billy Gilmour
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Dundee Utd (1): John Souttar
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Guiseley (1): Jacob Brown
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Hamilton (1): Lewis Ferguson
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Hearts (1): Aaron Hickey
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Hibernian (2): Josh Doig; Ryan Porteous
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Kilmarnock (1): Greg Taylor
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Man Utd (1): Scott McTominay
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Motherwell (2): Allan Campbell; David Turnbull
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Oadby Town (1): Che Adams
• 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Rangers (1): Nathan Patterson

Two at Celtic, one at Rangers. The clear reality is anywhere a player can get regular first team experience from a young age seems to be the single most important factor, when compared to training facilities or coaching (of course, these things will still help). Anyone with any raw talent will get picked up by a bigger club fairly quickly.

Our 'secondary clubs' (Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, etc.) seem to have the best success in bringing through players who'll play for the national team at the moment. Those clubs don't have the pressure of competing for the title each season, nor the budget to spend large amounts of money (relative to Celtic or Rangers). I doubt any of these clubs have better facilities or coaching that Celtic or Rangers, it's just those clubs can offer first team football at a high enough level at the make-or-break period of their career. Of course, there's the secondary point that the standard to make the Celtic or Rangers first team is higher than it is for Hearts or Aberdeen.

The biggest problem with the Old Firm's youth strategy, IMO, is they're unwilling to stick out the difficult period where younger players may make mistakes that established players they can afford to purchase wouldn't make, despite the huge long-term benefits both clubs could receive by pursuing an Ajax-style model of youth development.

The onus is really on the SFA or SPFL to introduce rules requring clubs to have a set number of home-grown players (especially those younger than 19-23) in their matchday squads. This should especially be the case in the lower leagues.

Rangers had a fantastic opportunity a decade ago to rebuild using young players from their youth system, but chose to purchase random foreign players like Emilson Cribari, Anestis Argyriou and Bilel Mohsni (🙄) and players who'd already peaked as very average SPL players like Dean Shiels, Francisco Sandaza or Kevin Kyle. None of those players were going to benefit the club for more than two or three years at best.

The standard of young player coming out of Scotland really seems to have improved heavily in the past few years, however. This may allow clubs to integrate these players on their own volition, but the short-term focus from many clubs seems to override the long-term benefit.

[csinclair]

Porteous having a solid game for Watford tonight. 
Must say I wasn’t a fan of him a year ago but he’s improved a lot and seems to have cut out some of the rash decisions from his game

[ceudmilefailte]

26 minutes ago, csinclair said:

Porteous having a solid game for Watford tonight. 
Must say I wasn’t a fan of him a year ago but he’s improved a lot and seems to have cut out some of the rash decisions from his game

Who scored gave his 3rd rating in 4 games for Watford over 7. Not bad for a team that let in 2 goals. 

Certainly worth keeping an eye on. 

[csinclair]

10 hours ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Who scored gave his 3rd rating in 4 games for Watford over 7. Not bad for a team that let in 2 goals. 

Certainly worth keeping an eye on. 

The first came from a corner not bring cleared and the second a sloppy pass from the keeper but Porteous not at fault for either. I watched this game and their one against Burnley last week and he looked very assured at the back in both.

[noctonjock]

Ryan hardie has scored a great goal for Plymouth tonight. Top of league 1 and hes scored a fair few this season. We have a bit of a striker shortage atm so should we consider him? Ross Stewart was picked after a season in league 1 

[vanderark14]

9 hours ago, noctonjock said:

Ryan hardie has scored a great goal for Plymouth tonight. Top of league 1 and hes scored a fair few this season. We have a bit of a striker shortage atm so should we consider him? Ross Stewart was picked after a season in league 1 

 

 

11 goals in 30 appearances inches 3rd tier of English football. I'd rather see Shankland given a chance 

[csinclair]

1 hour ago, vanderark14 said:

11 goals in 30 appearances inches 3rd tier of English football. I'd rather see Shankland given a chance 

Exactly, Stewart scored 24 in 46 the season in League One he was called up so a bit more prolific. I think we'd have to have a much worse injury crisis for Hardie to be looked at

[csinclair]

Lee Johnson has said Nisbet is definitely fit for March's games so that's good news. He's also reported as saying he thinks Josh Campbell should be considered and that Mikey Devlin can push for a recall.

I think Campbell is alright but way down the pecking order and as for Devlin, an odd comment maybe taken out of context given he's not even played a game for Hibs yet

[ProudScot]

44 minutes ago, csinclair said:

Lee Johnson has said Nisbet is definitely fit for March's games so that's good news. He's also reported as saying he thinks Josh Campbell should be considered and that Mikey Devlin can push for a recall.

I think Campbell is alright but way down the pecking order and as for Devlin, an odd comment maybe taken out of context given he's not even played a game for Hibs yet

Good news Nisbet will be fit especially with the Dykes situation. Devlin 😂

[Johnnyshaker]

The reverse of the thread title I know but Ryan Fraser is finished at Newcastle barring a managerial about turn.

 

[bigfingers]

1 hour ago, Johnnyshaker said:

The reverse of the thread title I know but Ryan Fraser is finished at Newcastle barring a managerial about turn.

 

No chance he can possibly get picked for these qualifiers even though he has performed well for us in the past.

[er yir macaroon]

10 hours ago, csinclair said:

Lee Johnson has said Nisbet is definitely fit for March's games so that's good news. He's also reported as saying he thinks Josh Campbell should be considered and that Mikey Devlin can push for a recall.

I think Campbell is alright but way down the pecking order and as for Devlin, an odd comment maybe taken out of context given he's not even played a game for Hibs yet

I have to say every time I’ve seen Campbell I’ve been highly impressed. Dynamic, skilful and determined. Certainly someone to keep an eye on for the future. 

[Kirk]

 

 

On 2/22/2023 at 2:55 PM, Johnnyshaker said:

The reverse of the thread title I know but Ryan Fraser is finished at Newcastle barring a managerial about turn.

 

Positive news at last

[ger intae them]

Chucky! …… surely not, although they are both about the same height.

[Big Ramy 1314]

https://www.facebook.com/323696678669/posts/pfbid0ccVH4NCTYem9Q1Lp8KByvtZABRLTygNiGKnWr2uBpDuEMp8WZTs4dHbuoCA9RaYfl/?sfnsn=mo&mibextid=6aamW6

One needs a guid skelping.!! 😉🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[thesaint]

2 hours ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

https://www.facebook.com/323696678669/posts/pfbid0ccVH4NCTYem9Q1Lp8KByvtZABRLTygNiGKnWr2uBpDuEMp8WZTs4dHbuoCA9RaYfl/?sfnsn=mo&mibextid=6aamW6

One needs a guid skelping.!! 😉🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Yeah. It's really sad when a kid goes bad. 😄😁😊😪

[Caledonian Craig]

A good display from John McGinn today with an assist in a 2-0 win for Villa.

[todd]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

A good display from John McGinn today with an assist in a 2-0 win for Villa.

Won the penalty too!  And got man of the match (sorry, them of the match)  A good days work.

[bigfingers]

Lewis Ferguson starting against Inter Milan this morning.