sbcmfc Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 And there we have it. What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Zeppelin Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 What? Post #500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bzzzz Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Either way it's a fkin embarrassment,the ref/officials need to be given the power to pull the match and punish etc. Obviously that'd be playing to both clubs love of the victim status but they'll learn quick enough when they're losing 30+ pts a season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Col Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Guardian article on the issue http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/feb/21/debate-old-firm-rangers-celtic In America, it is known as the YSA problem. It has been a bugbear of Major League Soccer’s commissioner, Don Garber, for longer than he will probably wish to remember and a couple of years ago, with a new television deal being negotiated, a memo went around that he could no longer tolerate that slightly strange tradition of supporters shouting: “You suck asshole!” every time the opposition goalkeeper took a goal-kick. Real Salt Lake went for the naughty-step approach and warned their fans that if the song continued the club would not allow drums and banners inside the stadium, as well as halting privileges such as parking permits and discounted tickets. On the other hand, the New York Red Bulls opted for an incentive programme – bribery, to put it another way – and offered their supporters’ groups $2,000 each if they could go four games YSA-free. Other clubs use different methods when it comes to the songs they dislike. Liverpool put a Bart Simpson cartoon on their website recently appealing for the naughty word in the Steven Gerrard song to be removed – roundly ignored, naturally – and the attempts at sanitising football crowds go all the way back to Brian Clough’s early years at Nottingham Forest. Clough once ordered that a sign be carried around the City Ground before one game with the message: “Gentlemen, no swearing please! Brian.” When Clough was in the running for the England job the Trent End produced its own sign: “Brian, no leaving please! The gentlemen.” It’s different, though, with Rangers, trying to navigate a way through the fog of bigotry that still pollutes the club and the realisation, even in February 2015, that anyone who has a go will quickly find the hate mob unleashed on them. Sure enough, the poison started flowing when Stan Collymore set up an online petition – “Sectarian chanting is illegal” – aimed at turning down the volume on the Famine Song and Billy Boys and challenging some of the warped views that still exist behind Ibrox’s red-bricked walls. In truth, the culture is so embedded and deep-rooted it might be 50 years, or longer, before Rangers (and Celtic) stop embarrassing modern Scotland. But at least he was willing to have a go, when he will have known that every wannabe Begbie on the internet would be on his case. Collymore was told very clearly his campaign wasn’t welcome. There were threats of violence and other messages to his Twitter account that made it clear their first reaction was to attack, like zombies. One guy who turned out to be a member of the club’s IT staff invited him to meet him in Glasgow, signed off with a clenched-fist emoticon that suggested he did not want to discuss Microsoft Windows or the latest edition of Smart Computing magazine. The Rangers Supporters’ Trust, an organisation that presumably wants to be taken seriously, reminded its followers what happened to Ulrika Jonsson 17 years ago (a bit rich at a club where they idolise Paul Gascoigne) and released a statement describing Collymore as a “self-publicist” and an “internet troll”, making petty jibes about his playing career and saying his complaints were “ill-advised, inaccurate and inane”. Plus, of course, the default-setting option every time Rangers are put on the spot: what about Celtic? It’s the tactic that is known in Glasgow as Whataboutery. Never mind what we did, what about them? OK, we’re singing about the IRA or 19th-century famines – but what about the other lot? Maybe there are times when Collymore could be less strident and it would bring more people on board if he could soften his tone. His style will always put a few backs up and, in hindsight, maybe it would have been a more effective petition if it addressed both Old Firm clubs rather than just one. Yet it is still fairly abysmal that one of the sport’s prominent broadcasters and racism campaigners tries to tackle a song that features the line “up to our knees in Fenian blood” and is dropped from his slot with BT Sport because the station “did not agree with the nature of the debate”. In Spain, they have been deliberating over the past week about whether Barcelona should be punished because a group of supporters known as Almogàvers, latching on to some video footage of Cristiano Ronaldo on a birthday night out, started singing at one match: “Es un borracho, Cristiano es un borracho” — translated to accuse him of being a drunk. The threat of disciplinary action may sound faintly preposterous bearing in mind what can regularly be heard at football grounds elsewhere but the death of a Deportivo la Coruña supporter during violence with Atlético Madrid fans last November has led to a purge on any chants that Javier Tebas, president of Liga de Fútbol Profesional, says constitutes “symbolic violence”. Barcelona, therefore, have been charged and several other clubs are also in trouble. Sevilla are one of them because when they played Málaga their fans were apparently singing: “We want a tsunami in the Costa del Sol.” Lugo, in the Second Division, have been reported because fans sang “clown, clown” at Girona’s Francisco José Sandaza and it does make you wonder how long the backlog of disciplinary cases might be were the same rules to apply in the British leagues. Yet the songs Collymore highlighted are of an entirely different level. In 2006, Rangers were ordered by Uefa to make an announcement before each game clarifying that Billy’s Boys was banned because of its sectarian content. The Famine Song contains the line “The famine is over, why don’t you go home?” and was deemed racist by three judges in 2008. Yet both were sung en masse, along with No Pope of Rome, at the Scottish League Cup semi-final against Celtic earlier this month. And, go on then, what about the other lot? Celtic’s dunderheads went through songs referring to a “Rangers supporter” and, of course, they have their own share of 90-minute and full-time bigots. But it was the Rangers end that seemed hell‑bent on going back through the decades and, if it does seem slightly unusual that Collymore is the one demanding change, maybe that is because we rarely hear a peep out of the people who really should be driving this. The Scottish Professional Football League hides behind a rule that means clubs cannot be disciplined if they have taken steps “so far as is reasonably practicable” and the Scottish FA is just as feeble. As for BT Sport, would it not have been better to highlight Collymore’s legitimate complaints and have a grown-up debate rather than decide it was too toxic and take him off air. “We abhor all forms of racism,” read a statement. “It should not be tolerated in sport. When issues of racism or sectarianism emerge, they should be tackled and discussed in the correct manner.” Except it’s easy to put out a press release and promise the discussion will take place on another day. Why not involve the man who has brought it to light? And do they really not understand the irony that Gazza, the guy who once played a mock flute during an Old Firm game, is their guest on Sunday? The same statement argues that it is “not censorship” that Collymore was removed from his role. Maybe not, but what has actually happened is that Collymore has complained a bit too vociferously for the station’s liking and the relevant people have taken what looks suspiciously like a commercially motivated decision rather than one that is actually fuelled by what is right and wrong. Collymore had promised taking his petition to the various sponsors and broadcasters and suggesting they boycott Rangers until the sectarian songs stopped. Would the relevant people have had the nerve? Well, just look at what has happened instead. On Friday, when Rangers played at Raith Rovers, the soundtrack was defiantly predictable. The television executives have run a mile, Collymore has been bumped and the Rangers Supporters’ Trust has told its followers they “can chalk that up as a minor victory”. And everyone wonders why we are stuck in the same old loop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goozay Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I don't and I'm interested.... It does seem divisive that kids can play in the street and go to nursery together and then at the age of 4/5 they go to different schools because of what branch of religion their parents practice (or don't in most cases). Personally I think religion is something that should be done in your own time, and can be taught at Sunday school, at home or whatever. The most ridiculous thing about the backwards sectarianism in Scotland is that so few of these people actually practice the religion! Perhaps if they did they would be more tolerant and realise there is very little difference. I agree with most of this I would like to see our new board make a statement from day one that songs that a quite clearly banned are not welcome at Rangers. The only thing that will get through to fans will be points deductions. Fines don't really impact on the individual. Fans have been arrested but this is not really having much impact. I am sure the vast majority of tickets sold to Rangers fans on Friday came directly from Raith Rovers. So maybe the option is for home clubs not to sell tickets to Rangers fans at all. And this. Apparently its too complicated to understand for us mere mortals. There are a lot of apologists in the media to give their irish traditions too much credibility when it comes to the singalonga provo. Oh well - 2 out of 3 isn't bad. Recommend you save your energy for focusing on your own club's inadequate approach to sectarian singing and leave Celtic's inadequate approach to themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I agree with most of this And this. Oh well - 2 out of 3 isn't bad. Recommend you save your energy for focusing on your own club's inadequate approach to sectarian singing and leave Celtic's inadequate approach to themselves. As Michael grant said yesterday, one of the big problems is that neither side can fully condemn their own with out pointing the finger at the other side. It's beyond childish and its an embarrasment to scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe545 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Agree with the two posts above. Can remember being singled out on a Monday morning at primary school because I didn't know the sermon at Sunday's mass because my parents never took me (thankfully) *by the teacher All through primary and high school I could probably count on one hand the amount of times anything remotely sectarian came about. Good few mates were Rangers fans and it was never a big deal. I also went to a catholic school and remember the priest coming and singling out 7 year olds who didn't go to church. Took them aside and ranted and raved to them until they were all in tears with the promise they were all going to burn in hell. The teacher did nothing to stop it. This was in the 1990s! That said, that's not why i think that catholic schools should removed, it's because if the natural segregation that occurs. I could probably count on one hand the people i know from my hometown who went to a non-dom school. Even as a now atheist, non-Celtic supporting expat, I still find myself thinking every now and then of Rangers and their fans as "them", people who I have little in common with. When the vast majority of the Scottish people you know are from one side of the fence, can you ever really escape the us and them feelings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Why is it acceptable for someone to call me a sheepshagging ,but not for me to call them a fenian/hhun ? Are you for real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Ok. You can't have some forms of abuse acceptable and others not acceptable. So it leads me back to my original question. Why is it acceptable for someone to call me a sheepshagging ,but not for me to call them a fenian/hhun ? This isn't purely aimed at you btw,it's an open question. I am now wondering if you are offended by the artwork in the Main Stand at Pittodrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I also went to a catholic school and remember the priest coming and singling out 7 year olds who didn't go to church. Took them aside and ranted and raved to them until they were all in tears with the promise they were all going to burn in hell. The teacher did nothing to stop it. This was in the 1990s! That said, that's not why i think that catholic schools should removed, it's because if the natural segregation that occurs. I could probably count on one hand the people i know from my hometown who went to a non-dom school. Even as a now atheist, non-Celtic supporting expat, I still find myself thinking every now and then of Rangers and their fans as "them", people who I have little in common with. When the vast majority of the Scottish people you know are from one side of the fence, can you ever really escape the us and them feelings? We had something a wee bit like that .......... at an non-denom school ! My abiding memory of my otherwise happy primary school days were the large number of middle aged women teachers who made us have around about 45 minutes of hymn practice twice a month, wonder what useful things we could have actually learned in the meantime ? You can only practice singing "Give me oil in my lamp...." so many times before you start to channel neo-pagan thoughts ..... There was also a monthly visit from the local minister to tell you a story from the bible (and interrupt a maths or English class into the bargain) and watching the same boring film about Jesus every Easter. I also remember one very strange moment during a spelling lesson when a teacher rather solemnly asked one of my classmates "do you say your prayers every night ?" and told us all quite seriously that we should do so "if you want to go to heaven". All very creepy when I look back on it now. It was also kind of weird that every single teacher (not an exaggeration) in my primary school at least claimed to be a regular churchgoer, although I think some must have been a bit economical with the truth. The head teachers of the time evidently were dead set on employing CofS members regardless of whether they were a good teacher or not. Funnily enough I'm actually a firm believer in a "supreme being" and the afterlife but just don't follow any faith. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Zeppelin Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 That's a shame for Pat Nevin, going deaf at his age! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilly71 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 There's a difference in the background and scale of immigration from Ireland to scotland than England. I would have thought it was obvious that having distinctive schools for catholic kids and everyone else would be a factor in causing/contributing to sectarianism. It's just a question of the extent. Aside from that issue, I don't see why the state continues to fund religious education for one religion. It sets a precedent for all other religions having their own schools which is not healthy for society in my view. Tee hee, it doesnt cost any more money to send a wean to a Catholic School than it does to a non denom school, its all state funded through the tax payer and as far as im aware Catholics pay taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Tee hee, it doesnt cost any more money to send a wean to a Catholic School than it does to a non denom school, its all state funded through the tax payer and as far as im aware Catholics pay taxes.It does however mean having 2 schools instead of 1 in a lot of areas, which is a waste of valuable resources though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 It does however mean having 2 schools instead of 1 in a lot of areas, which is a waste of valuable resources though. On what basis? You would still need the same number of schools (however they were branded) and teachers for the same number of pupils, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (JPM will be spinning in his tamb cyber grave). There is no such thing as a 'state funded' school. They are all 'tax payer funded' schools. You pay your school fees through the state or you would pay them yourself independently. What is the difference? What is expected by some fanatics is that people are forced to pay their taxes for 'state' education and then if they want to send their kid to a faith school they are made to pay fees again for private education, with no relief for the taxes paid to state education. So it comes down to this, do people have a choice how their children are educated or do all children have to be educated the same? At the same Stalin, sorry State school? Because it is quite Stalinist to make all children go the same homogeneous 'state' no religion school. Why are rich kids allowed to go to 'elite' private schools? Is that not equally 'divisive'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce778 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 On what basis? You would still need the same number of schools (however they were branded) and teachers for the same number of pupils, no? Not really. Take neilston for example. A non-denom school with 350 kids and a RC school with 180 kids. Could be merged into one school. Anyway, think this has strayed way off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (JPM will be spinning in his tamb cyber grave). There is no such thing as a 'state funded' school. They are all 'tax payer funded' schools. You pay your school fees through the state or you would pay them yourself independently. What is the difference? What is expected by some fanatics is that people are forced to pay their taxes for 'state' education and then if they want to send their kid to a faith school they are made to pay fees again for private education, with no relief for the taxes paid to state education. So it comes down to this, do people have a choice how their children are educated or do all children have to be educated the same? At the same Stalin, sorry State school? Because it is quite Stalinist to make all children go the same homogeneous 'state' no religion school. Why are rich kids allowed to go to 'elite' private schools? Is that not equally 'divisive'? Stalinist? Bizarre choice of words.Is it Stalinist to want education and religion to be separated? I don't think so, just basic common sense. Otherwise every religion will want it's own schools and we'll get more division rather than less. How anyone can think brain washing kid into believing in a fantasy figure in the sky and some out dated population control ideas is a good use of limited education resources is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Today's topic on Morning Call. Expecting some interesting responses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Today's topic on Morning Call. Expecting some interesting responses... "Aye but they pure sing songs aboot the IRA an' that" "Songs sung by Celtic fans aren't sectarian, they're political" "We're being picked on. What about songs Aberdeen fans sing?" The some clown might ask "what if you're god is a sheep?" Yawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Today's topic on Morning Call. Expecting some interesting responses... Frankie Gilfeather blaming Chelsea fans, wtf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Frankie Gilfeather blaming Chelsea fans, wtf. Auld Frank's always been a tad eccentric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Tartan Army getting it in the neck for booing the "English" anthem now. Equivalent to sectarian abuse apparently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 "Aye but they pure sing songs aboot the IRA an' that" "Songs sung by Celtic fans aren't sectarian, they're political" "We're being picked on. What about songs Aberdeen fans sing?" The some clown might ask "what if you're god is a sheep?" Yawn. Hey, that's my question. And nobody answered me.You could just get a sense of humour. Not sure where they sell them but I'm sure we could have a whip round for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Interesting to hear the woman who was a former season ticket holder (at Ibrox I presume?) who stopped going after being laughed at by other fans for criticizing their sectarian chanting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debian Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Scrap religion scrap the problem. God's no real anyway, so can you get in to trouble for singing to someone who believes in someone who isn't really someone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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