ceudmilefailte Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 1 hour ago, aaid said: Looks like Stevie Clarke is at Bristol City v Leeds. Cooper and Douglas both playing for Leeds Must be Cooper. Surprised he wasn't at Ibrox instead, half his squad were Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Chris Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 It makes sense. He knows the Killie players inside out, won't have as much knowledge of the two playing for Leeds so worth seeing if they're in form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said: Would need to be able to play for any team or country of his generation with out making that team weaker. Very hard to be objective though with out about 8 years worth of form so I revise Robertson to "looks world class" or "currently playing world class" So basically not world class. Probably easier to use the term in the past sense unless you are Messi on Ronaldo/ I do think some people under use world class and apply it only to iconic players. Bearing in mind that it's difficult to compare across different eras and very difficult to compare players from before the 50s due to the lack of footage, my view is this. There is an elite group of players that you could easily have a discussion about them being the best players ever. These would be Pele, Maradona, Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo and older people would probably add Di Stefano and possibly Puskas to that list. My opinion is Maradona is the best ever but I'd accept there's an argument for the others. Then you have a group I would consider world class which is essentially players you would be consider being amongst the best of their period - and I think you have to look at that over an extended period, not just a single season. This is far from an exhaustive list but it's players like Cruyff, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Fat boy Ronaldo, Beckenbauer, Platini, Gullit, Van Basten, Maldini - you get my drift hopefully. Over the last 50 years there's maybe a couple of hundred or so in this category. The only Scottish players I'd include in that are Souness, Dalglish, Law, Baxter and possibly Jimmy Johnstone and Mackay. Your definition is a fair one but I have a couple of problems with it. First of saying they wouldn't weaken any team I think isn't enough I'd say you'd have to demonstrably make any team better. There's an obvious problem with Robertson in that. Even he admits that he's not that versatile. Playing for Liverpool in the side and shape he does, he's very good but that might not apply if he was in a team playing in a shape that didn't suit him. The other problem is that it suggests that anyone who is one of the best players in their position *at this point in time* is world class. If you are going to use that description it needs to be worthy of some comparison over the years. Edit to add, l'd include Danny McGrain as a Scottish world class player. Can't believe I'd forgotten him. Robertson doesn't currently come close to McGrain. Edited August 4, 2019 by aaid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 21 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said: Surprised he wasn't at Ibrox instead, half his squad were Would he be there, to watch the grass grow? Bristols handy for him anyway, just down the M4 from Maidenhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrniaboc Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 It seems that some people's definition of world class is that the player would be good enough to get into a team selected from all players on history. I prefer a definition of the player being among the best in the world in their position at this time. Not many better left backs in the world than Robbo right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan II Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 1 hour ago, aaid said: Over the last 50 years there's maybe a couple of hundred or so in this category. The only Scottish players I'd include in that are Souness, Dalglish, Law, Baxter and possibly Jimmy Johnstone and Mackay. See, I thought he was okay and a decent, steady defender. But not sure Malky can be classed as right up there. 1 hour ago, aaid said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0Neils40yarder Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Amazes me when the debate on 'world class' comes up... The term is defined as 'of, or among, the best in the World'... ... Clearly Andy Robertson is a world class left back. Its pretty straightforward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0Neils40yarder Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Also... David Turnbull will be the man we are looking for to improve our midfield over the long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Couple of Cooper stats from todays game.he had a 94% pass success rate(58 out of 62) He had 6.7% of match possession and 76 touches of the ball. Is there any Scottish defender anyone would trust to be that involved in a game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderer Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 John Souttar went off injured midway through first half at Aberdeen today, and spent most second half standing around the tunnel area on crutches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wee-toon-red Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 58 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said: Couple of Cooper stats from todays game.he had a 94% pass success rate(58 out of 62) He had 6.7% of match possession and 76 touches of the ball. Is there any Scottish defender anyone would trust to be that involved in a game? Liam Cooper is hopeless. Passing stats are pretty meaningless for a defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Dark_Knight Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 My definition of 'world-class" is a player that could play for, and enhance, any team on the planet. That's Andy Robertson. Andy Robertson has proven himself in England and in Europe. To Liverpool fans, i'd say that they already hold him in the same esteem as Souness, Dalglish and Hansen. In my opinion, we have one world class player (Robertson) and three very good players (McTominay, Fraser and Tierney). One plays for Man United and the other two were linked with Arsenal. Again, in my opinion, the other players in and around the squad are average. Growing up we had players like Collins, McAllister, Lambert and then Fletcher and Ferguson. Those midfielders were genuine class. I'd even say that Lambert was world class (Nullifying a great Man United side in the semi and marking Zidane out of the European cup final, as well as setting up one of the goals) We had midfielders who were playing for Borussia Dortmund, Monaco, Liverpool. Now it's Villa, Southampton and Celtic. It's not good enough and no one here should be content to talk up players like McGregor, Christie or McGinn as they haven't done anything to justify the hype or adulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 Robertson is undoubtedly one of the best left backs in the world, in terms of being defined or remembered as world class he’d need to maintain this form for another season at the very least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted August 4, 2019 Share Posted August 4, 2019 1 hour ago, wee-toon-red said: Liam Cooper is hopeless. Passing stats are pretty meaningless for a defender. Fair enough we'll stick with our good central defenders. As for passing stats being meaningless for a defender. I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
er yir macaroon Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 7 hours ago, Tartan Chris said: Weren't people going mad about McCrorie a while back, sent off for Portsmouth yesterday. what’s your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JECK Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 9 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said: My definition of 'world-class" is a player that could play for, and enhance, any team on the planet. That's Andy Robertson. Andy Robertson has proven himself in England and in Europe. To Liverpool fans, i'd say that they already hold him in the same esteem as Souness, Dalglish and Hansen. In my opinion, we have one world class player (Robertson) and three very good players (McTominay, Fraser and Tierney). One plays for Man United and the other two were linked with Arsenal. Again, in my opinion, the other players in and around the squad are average. Growing up we had players like Collins, McAllister, Lambert and then Fletcher and Ferguson. Those midfielders were genuine class. I'd even say that Lambert was world class (Nullifying a great Man United side in the semi and marking Zidane out of the European cup final, as well as setting up one of the goals) We had midfielders who were playing for Borussia Dortmund, Monaco, Liverpool. Now it's Villa, Southampton and Celtic. It's not good enough and no one here should be content to talk up players like McGregor, Christie or McGinn as they haven't done anything to justify the hype or adulation. Totally agree re the Celtic lads. They've proved themselves in Scotland year in year out, won countless medals, theyve got to be looking to make that step up to the next level and move to a top league. That's what all the best players in Europe do. Outside Scotland no one gives a sh*t about 9/10 in a row, probably find it laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0Neils40yarder Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 12 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said: Robertson is undoubtedly one of the best left backs in the world, in terms of being defined or remembered as world class he’d need to maintain this form for another season at the very least. No he wouldnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said: No he wouldnt Oh yes he would Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDange Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) McKenna handing in a transfer request according to the state broadcaster. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49238176 Edited August 5, 2019 by McDange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanticscot Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 13 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said: My definition of 'world-class" is a player that could play for, and enhance, any team on the planet. That's Andy Robertson. Andy Robertson has proven himself in England and in Europe. To Liverpool fans, i'd say that they already hold him in the same esteem as Souness, Dalglish and Hansen. In my opinion, we have one world class player (Robertson) and three very good players (McTominay, Fraser and Tierney). One plays for Man United and the other two were linked with Arsenal. Again, in my opinion, the other players in and around the squad are average. Growing up we had players like Collins, McAllister, Lambert and then Fletcher and Ferguson. Those midfielders were genuine class. I'd even say that Lambert was world class (Nullifying a great Man United side in the semi and marking Zidane out of the European cup final, as well as setting up one of the goals) We had midfielders who were playing for Borussia Dortmund, Monaco, Liverpool. Now it's Villa, Southampton and Celtic. It's not good enough and no one here should be content to talk up players like McGregor, Christie or McGinn as they haven't done anything to justify the hype or adulation. By your definition your saying there could only only be one squad of world class players ever? Let's take goal keepers, three keepers max enhances the squad, the 4th best say doesnt enhance unless your dropping from another position. It's just as valid as any other criteria, your saying that pool is extremely small. For arguements sake - Buffon, Schmeichel, Zoff and Khan - not all of these would make it as they dont enhance what you already have. My criteria is similar, the best 2/3 in their era in their position and they must be there for a sustained period of a few years and be consistent in both national and domestic squads. Robertson is world class for me - two back to back CL finals and made his position his own in a squad competing for domestic trophies. Roberto Carlos and Lahm are other two examples- different eras but still hold the phrase world class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 5 hours ago, romanticscot said: By your definition your saying there could only only be one squad of world class players ever? Let's take goal keepers, three keepers max enhances the squad, the 4th best say doesnt enhance unless your dropping from another position. It's just as valid as any other criteria, your saying that pool is extremely small. For arguements sake - Buffon, Schmeichel, Zoff and Khan - not all of these would make it as they dont enhance what you already have. My criteria is similar, the best 2/3 in their era in their position and they must be there for a sustained period of a few years and be consistent in both national and domestic squads. Robertson is world class for me - two back to back CL finals and made his position his own in a squad competing for domestic trophies. Roberto Carlos and Lahm are other two examples- different eras but still hold the phrase world class. Is 18 months a sustained period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romanticscot Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 18 months would be getting there, a purple patch for a few games would not be. If you getting at Andy Robertson only having 18 months of great football, I disagree there but I understand the first few months of being at Liverpool he was not a regular starter, but his form at Hull in the Premier League was great also, Championship even also but I cant include that a high enough standard to be considered suitable criteria for discussion. He changed clubs, adapted and has gone on from strength to strength all the while being consistent for us. Edited August 5, 2019 by romanticscot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0Neils40yarder Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 The notion that Andy Robertson is anything other than World Class is fucking bonkers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceudmilefailte Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 Shinnie on the bench for Derby tonight which is quite normal for new signings To be honest though I have never really rated him but a lot of people think he was one of the best players outside of Celtic over the last few years in the SPL. Its not a benchmark but it is a chance to compare championship and SPL standards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noctonjock Posted August 5, 2019 Share Posted August 5, 2019 22 hours ago, wee-toon-red said: Liam Cooper is hopeless. Passing stats are pretty meaningless for a defender. Ok if you say so. Captain of Leeds once again tells me somebody knows different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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