The Brexit Thread

[hampden_loon2878]

24 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Thank sweet merciful feck you aren't in charge then.

Your approach would drive away quite a number of SNP voters I know. 

Well the approach at the minute has driven countless amounts of people i know away from the snp and more worrying independence 

[ErsatzThistle]

11 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Well the approach at the minute has driven countless amounts of people i know away from the snp and more worrying independence 

So you want to use the old approach from the days when we had just three MP's and a few dozen councillors. Fuck that.

Times have changed. Out with the old ....

Edited October 20, 2019 by ErsatzThistle

[Caledonian Craig]

The way I see it is that 62% of Scotland voted to remain in the EU. If tge SMP can convert them all into Yes voters for IndyRef 2 then independence will be sealed. To do that they must mske Brexit a big issue and appear to dig their heels in at Westminster. And if Scotland do gain independence surely showingvourselves to be pro-EU right now helps our cause in the future should we seek EU membership.

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

When i say get the nationalist back in the party, i mean dont be scared to talk scotland up to the hilt and put scotland first and not the EU. Its just seems stale and mundane, its a boring politics they are playing, no grit just text book politics,, its actually hard to describe what i mean, and no not blood and soil politics.

 

cherry and her politics would not be the direction i would like the snp to go down, the party need to remember the politics that got them so very close to independence, that political position would have us in a much healthier position than we see ourselves at the moment 

Don't you think if they just talked Scotland up people would be saying ‘ bloody SNP , all they ever do is moan and talk about Scotland and independence,  they are interested in nothing else ‘.? 

I am not sure what politics it is you want them to concentrate on so I am not able to agree or disagree with you on that, but I feel they can only currently concentrate on Brexit/ EU as it is so dominant.

Sometimes you need to stick your head above the parapet, Joanna Cherry is smart and articulate and commands a lot of respect, even by people who dont necessarily agree with the SNP.  If I was on the fence on independence I think  I would be impressed that she is both promoting Scotland but also standing up to the Tories on behalf of the UK in general. I did feel however that she and Blackford were just a tad too smug after their court win.  

I don't particularly agree with all the transgender stuff but at the same time neither do I feel its a big vote loser as I dont think its on many peoples radar. 

I am interested in what you say though because I think you have a very good handle on the climate , and so this makes me a little uneasy. 

 

 

[hampden_loon2878]

40 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Don't you think if they just talked Scotland up people would be saying ‘ bloody SNP , all they ever do is moan and talk about Scotland and independence,  they are interested in nothing else ‘.? 

I am not sure what politics it is you want them to concentrate on so I am not able to agree or disagree with you on that, but I feel they can only currently concentrate on Brexit/ EU as it is so dominant.

Sometimes you need to stick your head above the parapet, Joanna Cherry is smart and articulate and commands a lot of respect, even by people who dont necessarily agree with the SNP.  If I was on the fence on independence I think  I would be impressed that she is both promoting Scotland but also standing up to the Tories on behalf of the UK in general. I did feel however that she and Blackford were just a tad too smug after their court win.  

I don't particularly agree with all the transgender stuff but at the same time neither do I feel its a big vote loser as I dont think its on many peoples radar. 

I am interested in what you say though because I think you have a very good handle on the climate , and so this makes me a little uneasy. 

 

 

 

When people state that 62% of scots voted remain, although correct ,to get all those voters remain to support independence is fantasy, in my line of work i come across folk from all over the country so i try to gauge the general feeling, if there were a election tomorrow the snp wold sit on about 45 seats however the vote count wouldnt be great and that worries me going forward into a referendum, the transgender stuff doesn't bother me but its not clever politics and sometimes its just better to play safe.Cherry is very clever but i think she is being carried away with all the drama and that worries me

 

@ErsatzThistle i would like to go back to centre politics were alec salmond had us, IMO where Scotland's politics as a whole lies.New is not always better, the snp took decades to build that support so why try to fix it when its not broken? To achieve independence we need to represent scotland, not leave,remain,left or right, the waters are muddied at the moment and many are losing sight of the purpose of the snp

[ErsatzThistle]

2 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

@ErsatzThistle i would like to go back to centre politics were alec salmond had us, IMO where Scotland's politics as a whole lies.New is not always better, the snp took decades to build that support so why try to fix it when its not broken? To achieve independence we need to represent scotland, not leave,remain,left or right, the waters are muddied at the moment and many are losing sight of the purpose of the snp

Your living deep in a mediocre past. 

Do you seriously think we could achieve any success without a large chunk of Labour's old support behind us ? Dream on. Without those voters we go nowhere.

[Caledonian Craig]

At the moment independence referendum is not on the table. And it certainly wouldnt be if the SNP were not showing anger at what is happening with Brexit. Like I have said before at present there is probably a guaranteed Yes vote out there of about 40% who will vote Yes come what may. Now last time around it was quite a big issue EU membership or losing it by voting Yes. There are surveys out there saying just under 20% who voted No put EU membership as an important factor as to why they voted the way they did. Capturing their vote this time will help tip the vote in our balance.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Caledonian Craig

[WCTA]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Well the approach at the minute has driven countless amounts of people i know away from the snp and more worrying independence 

Naw it husnae.

[hampden_loon2878]

27 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Your living deep in a mediocre past. 

Do you seriously think we could achieve any success without a large chunk of Labour's old support behind us ? Dream on. Without those voters we go nowhere.

Those votes were taken before the EU referendum, you my friend are living in a bubble and its a dangerous bubble that is dangerous to anyone with aspersions of independence 

[hampden_loon2878]

24 minutes ago, WCTA said:

Naw it husnae.

It has, look at the vote count at the  last GE in banff and buchan compared to 2015, thats what you call a vote collapse 

[ErsatzThistle]

9 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

It has, look at the vote count at the  last GE in banff and buchan compared to 2015, thats what you call a vote collapse 

And we don't want the SNP going begging to narrow minded fishermen making false promises about catches that can't be kept.

If they can't accept the EU then I don't want their votes.

13 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Those votes were taken before the EU referendum, you my friend are living in a bubble and its a dangerous bubble that is dangerous to anyone with aspersions of independence 

Or maybe you need to accept the fact that a generational shift is occurring within the SNP and you just don't like change ?

[exile]

2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Don't you think if they just talked Scotland up people would be saying ‘ bloody SNP , all they ever do is moan and talk about Scotland and independence,  they are interested in nothing else ‘.? 
 

Reacting to a Nicola Sturgeon tweet. Laura Kuenssberg tweeted  "right on cue" (triggering a little spat apparently between Val McDermid and Muriel Gray) Apparently 2300 replies, even made it into the Herald. 

 

Though to be fair, the DUP usually talk of NI, Plaid of Wales, and the Tories usually talk of England, Britain and Brexit, and no one expects them not to! 

 

2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I did feel however that she and Blackford were just a tad too smug after their court win.  

 

I think more generally there's a bit of a danger that the Remainers are seen to be relying just a bit too much on pursuing  the anti-Brexit agenda via the courts etc.  I am not saying the legal route is wrong, but needs to be used carefully in combination with the democratic mandate arguments otherwise it gives the impression that the democratic 'will of the people' is being somehow thwarted through legal technicalities. I mean the legal technicalities are necessary; but they are not a substitute for winning the political argument. There is a danger of turning Johnson into a martyr, the heroic Hulk with his hands tied by a bunch of technocratic bad losers, etc etc.

Edited October 20, 2019 by exile

[hampden_loon2878]

@ErsatzThistle If a referendum was held tomorrow we would be flattened 40-42%  yes. Its not change that bothers me it is change that harms the chances of independence that does

[ParisInAKilt]

8 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

If they can't accept the EU then I don't want their votes.

Should be the SNP’s campaign slogan ...

[Caledonian Craig]

33 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Should be the SNP’s campaign slogan ...

My answer is how badly do you want independence? Enough to put aside your hatred of the EU? I would take independence in or out of the EU. Anything is better than this decrepit union. 

[AlfieMoon]

2 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

@ErsatzThistle If a referendum was held tomorrow we would be flattened 40-42%  yes. Its not change that bothers me it is change that harms the chances of independence that does

Interested to know why you arrive at that figure? 

Polls have been consistently 45%+ and recently nudging up to 50%. 

Why do you think it would be lower? 

[TDYER63]

12 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

 

When people state that 62% of scots voted remain, although correct ,to get all those voters remain to support independence is fantasy, in my line of work i come across folk from all over the country so i try to gauge the general feeling, if there were a election tomorrow the snp wold sit on about 45 seats however the vote count wouldnt be great and that worries me going forward into a referendum, the transgender stuff doesn't bother me but its not clever politics and sometimes its just better to play safe.Cherry is very clever but i think she is being carried away with all the drama and that worries me

 

I didnt mention 62% and dont think for one minute everyone who voted remain will suddenly all vote for independence but I do think some of them may view it in a more positive light. Joanna Cherry comes over as strong and intelligent, people may feel a degree of trust in her, I think the Snp SHOULD be showcasing their good politicians. . Yes it is possible she is getting carried away but it must be difficult not to when she is playing a high profile role in a situation which is, after all, her trained background. If Phillipa Whitford was taking a lead role and persevering on an NHS issue her vocal input would not be questioned.  
 

13 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

 

@ErsatzThistle i would like to go back to centre politics were alec salmond had us, IMO where Scotland's politics as a whole lies.New is not always better, the snp took decades to build that support so why try to fix it when its not broken? To achieve independence we need to represent scotland, not leave,remain,left or right, the waters are muddied at the moment and many are losing sight of the purpose of the snp

The waters are indeed muddied but , rightly or wrongly, I think some voters are losing sight of independence due to their own personal feelings on Brexit.  
 

11 hours ago, exile said:

Reacting to a Nicola Sturgeon tweet. Laura Kuenssberg tweeted  "right on cue" (triggering a little spat apparently between Val McDermid and Muriel Gray) Apparently 2300 replies, even made it into the Herald. 

 

Though to be fair, the DUP usually talk of NI, Plaid of Wales, and the Tories usually talk of England, Britain and Brexit, and no one expects them not to! 

 

I wasnt aware of the tweet as I am not on twitter. Have had a quick look . Think Val McDermid is being a bit of a drama queen . Nicola Sturgeon is big enough to handle LK. Apparently she responded to the tweet with ‘ Or perhaps just right’.
😂

11 hours ago, exile said:

I think more generally there's a bit of a danger that the Remainers are seen to be relying just a bit too much on pursuing  the anti-Brexit agenda via the courts etc.  I am not saying the legal route is wrong, but needs to be used carefully in combination with the democratic mandate arguments otherwise it gives the impression that the democratic 'will of the people' is being somehow thwarted through legal technicalities. I mean the legal technicalities are necessary; but they are not a substitute for winning the political argument. There is a danger of turning Johnson into a martyr, the heroic Hulk with his hands tied by a bunch of technocratic bad losers, etc etc.

Yes I would agree with you, there is a chance that Johnson could end up looking like a martyr or even  a bullied child , which really is fucking unbelievable.

However you could also argue that the legal technicalities are also the democratic will of the people as they have been put there by MP’s voted in by the democratic will of the people. 

The whole thing is a complete mess. I am way past caring anymore. 

[Dave78]

15 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

And we don't want the SNP going begging to narrow minded fishermen making false promises about catches that can't be kept.

If they can't accept the EU then I don't want their votes.

Or maybe you need to accept the fact that a generational shift is occurring within the SNP and you just don't like change ?

Not just generational, but a geographic shift. The SNP heartlands are now ex-Labour voting urban areas, whereas they used to be HampdenLoon's north-eastern neck of the woods. 

[Squirrelhumper]

9 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

@ErsatzThistle If a referendum was held tomorrow we would be flattened 40-42%  yes.

Would it fuck.

[thplinth]

I have wondered if the evisceration of labour in Scotland caused a whole heap of left leaning activists to identify the SNP as the new vehicle for achieving their dreams. Which is why all of a sudden the party sounds like the most tedious version of progressive politics imaginable and all the young blood are absolute roasters espousing this utter arse gravy. If so they are pure poison. 

[phart]

26 minutes ago, thplinth said:

I have wondered if the evisceration of labour in Scotland caused a whole heap of left leaning activists to identify the SNP as the new vehicle for achieving their dreams. Which is why all of a sudden the party sounds like the most tedious version of progressive politics imaginable and all the young blood are absolute roasters espousing this utter arse gravy. If so they are pure poison. 

The labels bug me cause i'm left wing and liberal, yet I don't believe anything like these people believe.

Again it;s this toxic bi-partisan american terms being used cause evertyhing to them is a two team event. Everything is pigeon-holed into two camps. These folk are authoritarian not liberal. Also what fucking self respecting left winger would try and take jobs off someone, that's total scab behaviour. These folk are always trying to get folk sacked, not really a tenant of any left-wing trade unionist movement or that. In fact try that shit back then and you'd get a sore face.

[thplinth]

18 minutes ago, phart said:

The labels bug me cause i'm left wing and liberal, yet I don't believe anything like these people believe.

Again it;s this toxic bi-partisan american terms being used cause evertyhing to them is a two team event. Everything is pigeon-holed into two camps. These folk are authoritarian not liberal. Also what fucking self respecting left winger would try and take jobs off someone, that's total scab behaviour. These folk are always trying to get folk sacked, not really a tenant of any left-wing trade unionist movement or that. In fact try that shit back then and you'd get a sore face.

I cant help you with that. The left is what the left does. They abandoned helping working class people because it was universally rejected by the working class (Thatcher, then Blair etc).

So they 'transmogrified' themselves into this 'identity / progressive politics shite. That is what the 'left' means now.

I have tried to be specific by calling them the alt-left, the radical left etc but I cant be arsed trying to placate you any more on this. You know exactly who and what I am referring to. So you give me a better 'label' and I'll happily use it. I actually have respect for old school socialists (even if I think it will not work in practice) but this progressive leftist crowd I would happily not piss on if they were on fire. The SNP seems to be hoaching with them now. Bad news.

[phart]

12 minutes ago, thplinth said:

I cant help you with that. The left is what the left does. They abandoned helping working class people because it was universally rejected by the working class (Thatcher, then Blair etc).

So they 'transmogrified' themselves into this 'identity / progressive politics shite. That is what the 'left' means now.

I have tried to be specific by calling them the alt-left, the radical left etc but I cant be arsed trying to placate you any more on this. You know exactly who and what I am referring to. So you give me a better 'label' and I'll happily use it. I actually have respect for old school socialists (even if I think it will not work in practice) but this progressive leftist crowd I would happily not piss on if they were on fire. The SNP seems to be hoaching with them now. Bad news.

It's a new movement with new people and folk in the laziest piece of political taxonomy influenced by their binary thinking have said "it is the left".

It's straight up wrong. Name a prominent Left/trade unionist intellectual from 25 years ago who is now espousing this. Non political as they aren't idealogues they're folk who will say antyhing to get elected.

I can't think of one and i went looking as well before i posted this. So it's a new phenomenom which is falsely being packaged as something that still exists. Probably for political partisan purposes. You can only see clearly when you're outside things, not inside the lie. Left/right being 1 dimensional isn't a good measure of anything really, like using only length to describe a planet moving through space. It fails to accurately describe what is happening from it;s own inherent limitations.

 

Now if we're talking about what theory political parties ascribe too then this new branch of authoritarian identity politics is a lot more represented by the political classes.

[thplinth]

The left and the right are dynamic processes. They are not locked into one historical moment that defines them. As I said the left (and the right) is what the left (and the right) does. And right now this is what the 'left' does. I was called ever 'label' under the sun by these same folk without I recall much objection. Like I say, you got a more accurate label I am happy to use it. Cunts works for me.

 

[WCTA]

FFS