Squirrelhumper Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Rossy said: It may be their frustration in knowing that Labour are utterly unelectable under Corbyn. The fact is, he's not a leader. He's not a communicator. He's an ideaologist who appeals to the converted but who will never, ever attract the huge number of people who sit politically on the middle-ground. Now, I don't care about Labour being in power. But at a point in time where the lunatic policies of the ultra right-wing are driving the rUK towards the edge of a cliff, surely Labour owe the country a decent, strong opposition ? I suspect that all his bumbling did yesterday was to make a few more people say that they'll never vote Labour again. Doesn't happen often but i agree 100%! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said: Neither does you saying he's dominating PMQ's! It does though. It shows he's holding the Government to account and getting his agenda in the public eye. Saying "he's clueless" and failing to expand on that at all, isn't really much of an argument IMO. As said above though, the PLP need to back him and keep up the attacks on the Tories. Corbyn can't do it all by himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Rossy said: It may be their frustration in knowing that Labour are utterly unelectable under Corbyn. The fact is, he's not a leader. He's not a communicator. He's an ideaologist who appeals to the converted but who will never, ever attract the huge number of people who sit politically on the middle-ground. Now, I don't care about Labour being in power. But at a point in time where the lunatic policies of the ultra right-wing are driving the rUK towards the edge of a cliff, surely Labour owe the country a decent, strong opposition ? I suspect that all his bumbling did yesterday was to make a few more people say that they'll never vote Labour again. I think that's a fair point about Corbyn's communication skills (or lack of). He isn't terrible but it isn't his strongest suit either. John McDonnell actually comes across better in this regard. I'd argue, though, that trying to present a set of policies that are distinct from the ruling administration's is a means of providing good opposition. It is certainly more commendable than trying to present the party as a cuddlier version of the Tories, which many of his colleagues want to. The immigration subject is a difficult one for him though. Many Labour areas voted in favour of Brexit in what was, for a lot of voters, a protest against mass migration. How he balances that with his ideological belief (I suspect) in the concept of the free movement of people will be tricky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Q Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 PMQ's is largely irrelevant (think how Hague used to run rings around Blair, no one much cared) but, in point of fact, it was covered extensively on the World at One on the Radio 4 earlier. Corbyn seems to me to be good at talking to the converted; far less effective in appealing outside his core support - those he actually needs to bring over/back to Labour in order to challenge the Tories. There is no denying he has enthused support among the 'young, metropolitan elite', uptake in Labour membership and his popularity as a public speaker shows that. It is far less clear that he appeals to the traditional working class outside London, and he has clear issues in Scotland (as does the Labour Party as a whole to be fair) and much of England. The immigration issue is crucially important for many, and UKIP have made huge inroads into Labour's traditional vote on the back of it. My company's HQ is in Wolverhampton and I am always taken aback at how they are almost to a man (and woman) staunchly anti-EU and in favour of (much) stricter immigration controls. Corbyn, who has been against the EEC/EU for much of his career, but always been a staunch campaigner against immigration controls, finds himself at the same time at odds with much of his party (which is pro EU) and also the voters he needs to appeal too (who are in favour of stricter immigration control). Hence his contortions yesterday. UKIP is a mess though and this looks a pretty feckless Tory administration, Labour can make inroads if they get their act together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 He's been completely invisible for months then pops up with some protest about salaries.. quite correctly by the way!! but then climbs down the mountain again. It's impossible to vote for Labour just now. Don't know if you're voting for Corbyn old Labour, Blairites, or Kezia Dugdale. All have completely different viewpoints. It's a mess of a party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, PapofGlencoe said: He's been completely invisible for months then pops up with some protest about salaries.. Except he hasn't been... Two days before he mentioned salaries he'd spent 3 days doing all he could to highlight the situation in the NHS in England & Wales. However he can't control the fact that his PLP won't help him and that the media will do nothing but attack him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Parklife said: Except he hasn't been... Two days before he mentioned salaries he'd spent 3 days doing all he could to highlight the situation in the NHS in England & Wales. However he can't control the fact that his PLP won't help him and that the media will do nothing but attack him. I agree the PLP and Media don't help him. And it could be argued it's not his fault. Fractured doesn't even cut it. There is no focal point to vote for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 It's alarmaing how many yes voters / supporters are quick to assume Corbyn is a clown or completely absent based on what the mainstream media show or don't show them. Short memories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 28 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: It's alarmaing how many yes voters / supporters are quick to assume Corbyn is a clown or completely absent based on what the mainstream media show or don't show them. Short memories. I'm not sure there are that many. Have you counted them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 45 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: It's alarmaing how many yes voters / supporters are quick to assume Corbyn is a clown or completely absent based on what the mainstream media show or don't show them. Short memories. Cause they are partisans like the rest. Not surprising folk pick their teams and stick to them through thick and thin on a board ostensibly about football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Tristram Hunt's resigned so that'll be one less back stabber for him to worry about. Keen to see how that by-election pans out as Stoke voted 70% Leave. He only had a 5000 majority over UKIP in 2015, so it'll interesting to see if that high Leave vote carries over to support for UKIP. Edited January 13, 2017 by aaid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said: It's alarmaing how many yes voters / supporters are quick to assume Corbyn is a clown or completely absent based on what the mainstream media show or don't show them. Short memories. I don't think it's only yes voters who think this. Sandhill (Sunderland) result: LDEM: 45.0% (+41.5) LAB: 25.0% (-29.9) UKIP: 18.7% (-7.2) CON: 10.0% (-5.7) GRN: 1.3% (+1.3) Ignore the libdem part. http://www.libdemvoice.org/massive-lib-dem-swing-to-gain-sunderland-council-seat-from-labour-52954.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Orraloon said: I'm not sure there are that many. Have you counted them? In my experience - amongst Yes supporters I know - there is generally a certain level of sympathy for Corbyn given that MSM treatment and also the backstabbing going on in the PLP. There is also a level of support for his policies - independence apart. That said, there's also a view that he's not a leader and the fact he hasn't sorted out his party after being in place for nearly 18 months does back that up. I wouldn't be surprised high Corbyn didn't have higher approval ratings in Scotland amongst SNP voters than Labour voters. Edit. In fact that's the case. This poll from September shows that 19% of labour voters thought he was doing well compared with 31% of SNP voters. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/labours-woes-north-border-are-getting-worse/ Edited January 13, 2017 by aaid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, aaid said: In my experience - amongst Yes supporters I know - there is generally a certain level of sympathy for Corbyn given that MSM treatment and also the backstabbing going on in the PLP. There is also a level of support for his policies - independence apart. That said, there's also a view that he's not a leader and the fact he hasn't sorted out his party after being in place for nearly 18 months does back that up. I wouldn't be surprised high Corbyn didn't have higher approval ratings in Scotland amongst SNP voters than Labour voters. In any company or organisation where someone is in charge of over 300 people (as Corbyn is with Labour MP's), you're going to have a certain element of dissent and general moaning. It then becomes the job of the person in charge to make sure that...despite personal feelings and gripes...everyone does what they can for the benefit of the company. That everyone can see the vision and the goals that the company is working towards, and that everyone strives to achieve these goals to the best of their abilities. It's called leadership. It's an incredibly difficult skill...some people have it, most don't. I don't think I've ever seen anyone 'leading' a political party who is as unsuitable for the job as Corbyn. Edited January 13, 2017 by Rossy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, antidote said: I don't think it's only yes voters who think this. Sandhill (Sunderland) result: LDEM: 45.0% (+41.5) LAB: 25.0% (-29.9) UKIP: 18.7% (-7.2) CON: 10.0% (-5.7) GRN: 1.3% (+1.3) Ignore the libdem part. http://www.libdemvoice.org/massive-lib-dem-swing-to-gain-sunderland-council-seat-from-labour-52954.html What's counter-intuitive to an extent about that is that Sunderland was another strong-Leave supporting area and yet the Lib Dems are the strongest EU supporting party. I wonder if there's local factors at play there, although I did see the Lib Dems gain another council seat last night from the Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, aaid said: What's counter-intuitive to an extent about that is that Sunderland was another strong-Leave supporting area and yet the Lib Dems are the strongest EU supporting party. I wonder if there's local factors at play there, although I did see the Lib Dems gain another council seat last night from the Tories. It interesting that the UKIP vote went down by over 7%. They were supposed to the party that was going to pick up disillusioned Labour voters, but several by- and local elections since Brexit would suggest that this vote (in England at least) is going to the Lib Dems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 42 minutes ago, Rossy said: It interesting that the UKIP vote went down by over 7%. They were supposed to the party that was going to pick up disillusioned Labour voters, but several by- and local elections since Brexit would suggest that this vote (in England at least) is going to the Lib Dems. Local council by-elections throw up some strange results, you can't read too much into them in isolation. May's council elections will give a better indication of the direction of travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 hour ago, aaid said: In my experience - amongst Yes supporters I know - there is generally a certain level of sympathy for Corbyn given that MSM treatment and also the backstabbing going on in the PLP. There is also a level of support for his policies - independence apart. That said, there's also a view that he's not a leader and the fact he hasn't sorted out his party after being in place for nearly 18 months does back that up. I wouldn't be surprised high Corbyn didn't have higher approval ratings in Scotland amongst SNP voters than Labour voters. Edit. In fact that's the case. This poll from September shows that 19% of labour voters thought he was doing well compared with 31% of SNP voters. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/07/26/labours-woes-north-border-are-getting-worse/ Sums up my opinion on him. I agree with a lot of what he says/does but he will never in a million years get close to winning an election. What's the point in being opposition leader if that's the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Probably as clear an indicator than any of Labour's current standing in Scotland... http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/first-minister-nicola-sturgeon-unveiled-9612681 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Toepoke said: Probably as clear an indicator than any of Labour's current standing in Scotland... http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/first-minister-nicola-sturgeon-unveiled-9612681 Daily Record has been edging towards support for independence ever since the EU referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest flumax Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Just like the other JC less and less people are believing in him every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan II Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 6 hours ago, flumax said: Just like the other JC less and less people are believing in him every day. Fewer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redz Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 On 1/13/2017 at 6:31 PM, aaid said: Daily Record has been edging towards support for independence ever since the EU referendum. That's a decent article, and a huge step, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 28 minutes ago, Redz said: That's a decent article, and a huge step, surely? It's a huge step for sure, but I honestly don't think we'd vote for independence any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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