SNP Indy Convention

[aaid]

7 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

As soon as you start comparing the Ancient Country of Scotland with Catalonia you have lost the argument

The threat of appealing to the UN should be enough  

The problem with that approach is it falls at the first hurdle.

The relevant UN chapters that deal with self-determination are all founded on decolonisation.  There is an assumption that a colony should have the right to secede and become a sovereign state if it wishes to.

Scotland is not, has never been, a colony, it is a constituent part of the United Kingdom.

[Ally Bongo]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

The problem with that approach is it falls at the first hurdle.

The relevant UN chapters that deal with self-determination are all founded on decolonisation.  There is an assumption that a colony should have the right to secede and become a sovereign state if it wishes to.

Scotland is not, has never been, a colony, it is a constituent part of the United Kingdom.

Colony: a country or area controlled politically by a more powerful country

It used to be Unionists that always say "You can't do that" etc

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Colony: a country or area controlled politically by a more powerful country

It used to be Unionists that always say "You can't do that" etc

Being treated like a colony is not the same as being one.

[Shaundy]

M’lud , yon cunto doth spout shite.

[AlfieMoon]

1 hour ago, stocky said:

The only way to get Indy is to persuade enough people of the benefits and get them to vote for it 

 

If we win any election with 55-65% of the vote ,then we will get independence.

 

Whinging on a message board won't get anywhere.

So tell the electorate that the SNP won’t seek independence until they win 55-65% of a vote in an election.  Tell people to accept that there is no mandate until then.  

 

[Shaundy]

The snp assembly at caird hall in Dundee likely matches the number of rogues who own and buy and sell the riches of Scotland to London. Though not the same people.

the rogues in England would need somewhere like the madjeski stadium in reading to accommodate their Berkshire Hunts 

[Redz]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

Spot on.

How do 'we' persuade 'us' then Aaid?

I'm reasonably tolerant outwith anything AFC related, but I'm now kinda camped in the career politic nonsense this has become.

We need a party, someone, who will get the fuck on with it

 

[aaid]

11 minutes ago, Redz said:

How do 'we' persuade 'us' then Aaid?

I'm reasonably tolerant outwith anything AFC related, but I'm now kinda camped in the career politic nonsense this has become.

We need a party, someone, who will get the fuck on with it

 

Stop focussing on process and magical ruses would be a starting point.  Stop arguing amongst ourselves would be another thing.  SG/SNP/Yes/whoever needs to help by providing resources, info and data.  Maybe the SNP needs to be thought of as a pro-Indy political party but not as the vehicle for independence.  The SNP - as with any political party - will have policies that people agree with and disagree with.  Chose to vote for them or not vote for them on that basis - but be aware of how opponents will spin that.  Don’t waste time debating(arguing) with people who are not going to change their minds.  Etc etc etc   

I was thinking about the “career” politician thing earlier.  Every political party faces this problem, especially where there’s been a sudden, unexpected result and there’s been a lot of people elected who you’d probably prefer hadn’t been.   That happened to the SNP in 2015 in WM, the current Tory intake from 2019 is another example.

The SNP is a lot more democratic than other parties with every MP or MSP having to go through an adoption process and being capable of being challenged.  In some cases this will be more of a rubber stamping than in others.  However, I don’t think that party HQ should interfere in candidate selection except in extreme circumstances.  Labour in particular have a terrible record in this respect, the latest example being their candidate for Rutherglen and Hamilton West.

[stocky]

1 hour ago, AlfieMoon said:

So tell the electorate that the SNP won’t seek independence until they win 55-65% of a vote in an election.  Tell people to accept that there is no mandate until then.  

 

There is no mandate till a majority of people want it .

That's correct.

The key word here is Majority.

When the majority of people want independence, independence will happen.

Up until now,no election has provided a majority.  

 

How could it possibly happen any other way .

What do you suggest as an alternative 🤔

 

[chaff]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:56 PM, aaid said:

What's your shortcut then?

What's yours?

All I'm seeing from you is rhe same tired rhetoric that we've had for over ten years. Christ I'm bored by the SNP.

There's nothing radical, nothing aggressive. Just the same old vote for us and we'll ask nicely. 

 

Bore off 

 

 

 

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, chaff said:

What's yours?

All I'm seeing from you is rhe same tired rhetoric that we've had for over ten years. Christ I'm bored by the SNP.

There's nothing radical, nothing aggressive. Just the same old vote for us and we'll ask nicely. 

 

Bore off 

 

 

 

I don’t have one Craig, I’m at least intelligent to know there isn’t one until either there is a real undeniable support for Indy or when the political circumstances make a deal expedient.

If you’ve a different solution I’m all ears, but don’t shoot the messenger.

[chaff]

6 minutes ago, aaid said:

I don’t have one Craig, I’m at least intelligent to know there isn’t one until either there is a real undeniable support for Indy or when the political circumstances make a deal expedient.

If you’ve a different solution I’m all ears, but don’t shoot the messenger.

Sorry if that sounded like a personal attack, I'm just frustrated bud.

I heard the deputy SNP guy saying yesterday that the SNP and wider yes movement need to promote the more positives of indy. I feel that's all we've been doing for ten years+

I know that the movement has been going decades longer but since 2013 it just seemed a bit more attainable and positive thoughts is a bit like thoughts and prayers after a high school shooting.

It's up to the SNP to answer the disputed points and give solid answers to assure the soft no vote regarding pensions and currency.

 

I personally don't think that the current strategy, the same strategy of the past 10 years is winning the argument.

We need radical thought, the common weal were amazing pre referendum, not the incumbent thought of how do we retain power and achieve indy.

Again, apologies if I came across as a personal attack.

[AlfieMoon]

33 minutes ago, stocky said:

There is no mandate till a majority of people want it .

That's correct.

The key word here is Majority.

When the majority of people want independence, independence will happen.

Up until now,no election has provided a majority.  

 

How could it possibly happen any other way .

What do you suggest as an alternative 🤔

 

I’d suggest they stop wasting everybody’s time by saying that they’ll demand a referendum if they ‘win’ the election.

‘Win’ being defined as a majority of seats. 

If the bar is a majority, or 55-65% as you said previously, then stop fucking about with requests until then.
 

And I also look forward to them telling me what happens if 55-65% isn’t deemed enough by Westminster. After all, we were sure that the dream scenario of Scotland ‘being dragged out of EU’ would be a game changer. The map could not have yet painted any more of a contrast. We were told that ‘now is not the time’ could never hold. We were told that denying democracy was an outrage and just wouldn’t be accepted. 

 

[chaff]

12 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

I’d suggest they stop wasting everybody’s time by saying that they’ll demand a referendum if they ‘win’ the election.

‘Win’ being defined as a majority of seats. 

If the bar is a majority, or 55-65% as you said previously, then stop fucking about with requests until then.
 

And I also look forward to them telling me what happens if 55-65% isn’t deemed enough by Westminster. After all, we were sure that the dream scenario of Scotland ‘being dragged out of EU’ would be a game changer. The map could not have yet painted any more of a contrast. We were told that ‘now is not the time’ could never hold. We were told that denying democracy was an outrage and just wouldn’t be accepted. 

 

Spot on 

[Hertsscot]

4 hours ago, aaid said:

I think it’s pretty lame but I understand that in the current circumstances - it’s become clear that we need to assent of Westminster - it’s as good as it gets.   We’ll have a stronger moral case for WM to just ignore.   What people don’t want to hear is that support isn’t where it needs to be to demonstrate the will of the people.   

So for the third time of asking, what’s your alternative?

Support needs to increase, we need to make sure we support events like the Chain of Freedom later in the year, marches etc.    and we need to vote and get others to vote, particularly as the Tories have deliberately passed policies to suppress voting. The SNP strategy hasn't yet been finalised and there were a number of ideas voiced at the convention. What is important is that pro-Indy groups put their own egos aside and work together and I've been encouraged by hearing that both on Saturday and at the AUOB rally in Glasgow. At every conceivable opportunity Unionist politicians need to be held to account and forced to give answers about 'when is the right time?' and 'what is the democratic means to leave the voluntary union?' There have been a few times in recent years when I've wondered why I'm still a SNP member but I do think there's been a refocus in recent weeks and a renewed commitment to get indy done, I hope I'm right.

[duncan II]

8 hours ago, chaff said:

What's yours?

All I'm seeing from you is rhe same tired rhetoric that we've had for over ten years. Christ I'm bored by the SNP.

There's nothing radical, nothing aggressive. Just the same old vote for us and we'll ask nicely. 

 

Bore off 

 

 

 

Sadly, this is where I am too.

[Redz]

13 hours ago, aaid said:

Stop focussing on process and magical ruses would be a starting point.  Stop arguing amongst ourselves would be another thing.  SG/SNP/Yes/whoever needs to help by providing resources, info and data.  Maybe the SNP needs to be thought of as a pro-Indy political party but not as the vehicle for independence.  The SNP - as with any political party - will have policies that people agree with and disagree with.  Chose to vote for them or not vote for them on that basis - but be aware of how opponents will spin that.  Don’t waste time debating(arguing) with people who are not going to change their minds.  Etc etc etc   

I was thinking about the “career” politician thing earlier.  Every political party faces this problem, especially where there’s been a sudden, unexpected result and there’s been a lot of people elected who you’d probably prefer hadn’t been.   That happened to the SNP in 2015 in WM, the current Tory intake from 2019 is another example.

The SNP is a lot more democratic than other parties with every MP or MSP having to go through an adoption process and being capable of being challenged.  In some cases this will be more of a rubber stamping than in others.  However, I don’t think that party HQ should interfere in candidate selection except in extreme circumstances.  Labour in particular have a terrible record in this respect, the latest example being their candidate for Rutherglen and Hamilton West.

Thanks for the above / taking the time to reply

12 hours ago, AlfieMoon said:

I’d suggest they stop wasting everybody’s time by saying that they’ll demand a referendum if they ‘win’ the election.

‘Win’ being defined as a majority of seats. 

If the bar is a majority, or 55-65% as you said previously, then stop fucking about with requests until then.
 

And I also look forward to them telling me what happens if 55-65% isn’t deemed enough by Westminster. After all, we were sure that the dream scenario of Scotland ‘being dragged out of EU’ would be a game changer. The map could not have yet painted any more of a contrast. We were told that ‘now is not the time’ could never hold. We were told that denying democracy was an outrage and just wouldn’t be accepted. 

 

This - It just continues to feel like we're being played

With a proper campaign (And the correct people in place) behind us, and water tight answers, I am confident we would achieve the 60%+ that is often referenced

Just get the F*ck on with it, and people, not the politicians, will tell us if we're 'ready' for independence, or not

Right now the current stalemate appears far too convenient for both sides

 

[Squirrelhumper]

13 hours ago, aaid said:

I don’t have one Craig, I’m at least intelligent to know there isn’t one until either there is a real undeniable support for Indy or when the political circumstances make a deal expedient.

If you’ve a different solution I’m all ears, but don’t shoot the messenger.

SNP certainly won't get that undeniable support. They seem to be intent in creating policy to ensure they don't. 

 

[PapofGlencoe]

If we ever get it, I think it'll come off the back of us having obvious support for it in polling; like the perceived view of public opinion anytime in the 20th-21st Century upto 2007 being pro-union only in the reverse.  

I think it'll end up being a new party called Yes Scotland with one word manifesto: Independence.  I can't see the SNP being the vehicle anymore, I think their period of achieving undeniable post-50% vote are gone.  You don't maximise the indy vote using only the SNP as the flag holder.  It has to be pro-indy parties as a whole or in my opinion, a party created to demonstrate the popular will if it is being denied.

[Freeedom]

It's been clear for the best part of a decade now that the SNP haven't a clue about how to get independence.

If people keep voting for them regardless of how little they actually move the needle, or even demonstrate the most basic level of competence on the issue then why should they ever change?

If you want to kick the SNP into gear don't vote for them. It's the best thing you can do for Scottish independence

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Freeedom

[Orraloon]

23 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

It's been clear for the best part of a decade now that the SNP haven't a clue about how to get independence.

If people keep voting for them regardless of how little they actually move the needle, or even demonstrate the most basic level of competence on the issue then why should they ever change?

If you want to kick the SNP into gear don't vote for them. It's the best thing you can do for Scottish independence

 

Are you suggesting that we should abstain, if we have nobody else to vote for?

[Freeedom]

59 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Are you suggesting that we should abstain, if we have nobody else to vote for?

Vote for whoever you want or abstain. I'm just saying that our only leverage is our vote. Why should the SNP change anything if people vote for them regardless of how ineffective they are?

The SNP could crash and burn at the next general election but I'm sure polls for independence will still be around 50%. That leaves the party with the question about how they can win independence voters back, maybe they will actually start to have a think about that and take us seriously. 

[hampden_loon2878]

9 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Vote for whoever you want or abstain. I'm just saying that our only leverage is our vote. Why should the SNP change anything if people vote for them regardless of how ineffective they are?

The SNP could crash and burn at the next general election but I'm sure polls for independence will still be around 50%. That leaves the party with the question about how they can win independence voters back, maybe they will actually start to have a think about that and take us seriously. 

Agreed, I will for the first time in my voting life not vote for the snp this next GE, 

[scotlad]

Crap though the SNP are at the moment, my main concern is a rout of their MPs next year will be used as an excuse to put measures in place to make it 1) harder for them to get back in and 2) for independence to be achieved in the future.  The SNP are shite under Yousaf (and latterly under Sturgeon) but purely as a vehicle it is still viewed as a threat by WM.

Also, the arrogance of Scottish Labour hasn't dissipated one bit over the past eight years.  The thought of part of our country being represented once again by a creepy wee nyaff like Douglas Alexander sickens me.

I get the logic in not voting SNP but for me the alternative is even worse.  I am lucky, though, in that I have a decent sitting SNP MP, who's neither a trougher nor a woke poseur, but who gets on with doing a good job of representing her constituents.  If she stands again my vote is virtually guaranteed, although, annoyingly, her seat is one that's forecast to "return" to Labour!