Freeedom

Would you like to explain to me how voting for the SNP is going to get us independence? They clearly don't have a clue, or any plan of action. If the SNP get hammered at the next election they will have to have a reset and listen to the thousands of independence voters that have abandoned them, they are beholden to the voters... we don't owe them anything.

The only thing I'm suggesting is to not vote for the SNP if you support independence. You can make your own decision from there

The best thing that can happen to the independence movement is to not vote for the SNP, don't reward bad behaviour it's the only way that the party can reset. Send them a message at the ballot box

I'm in this demographic with a lot of other people. I may disagree quite a bit on policy with the likes of Hampden loon but it's pretty simple what brings us together. We want independence, we need it to be front and centre and we need to see a coherent plan of how to get there with strong leadership behind a campaign. The SNP offer none of that.

This result perfectly reflects upon Sturgeons time in office, this is what she should be remembered for. But like all narcissists she's now going to spend a lot of time trying to rebrand herself in the face of a disastrous legacy. The independence movement has been left in tatters during the time of greatest opportunity, how very Scottish

Yes, Keir Starmer was one of the most vocal supporter of EU membership during the referendum campaign. I hope I am correct too because it's going to expose the fragility of the SNPs shitty independence strategy. The pro EU voters that they have be corralling for the last few years will start voting for a pro EU Labour party because they are not in the least bit interested in independence.

I didn't say he will take the UK back into the EU, I said that he would try to do so over the course of two terms. We know what he stands for and he will drip feed the idea that "things have changed" and that "for the best interests of the British economy, the people should have the chance to change their mind I'd they want." We know the man will say or do anything to get into power, he had to lie to win the labour leadership contest and he has lied again to get into office as PM. Once he is in power there is nothing to hold him accountable and he can do whatever he wants, and we know what it is that he wants. That's my prediction, which is based on history and the character of Keir Starmer and the neoliberals in his party. Labour WILL win, so how is that going to affect independence strategy? They will never ever grant us a referendum either.

No, as usual you aren't, but I don't think at any point you've made a good faith criticism of anything I've said

When's indyref 2, October isn't it?

Time well tell. I think they will do it over the course of two terms in office. The broader question is where would it leave the independence movement? The SNP are predicating their whole argument in favour of independence on rejoining the EU (something they can't even guarantee). As far as strategy goes, it's fucking bonkers.

The SNPs agenda couldn't be any clearer, where does it leave the independence campaign in Scotland when Keir Starmer starts campaigning to rejoin the EU? The party don't have two brain cells to rub together.

Yeah, he'll push for it slowly. We know what he really believes. He'll say or do anything to get into office and then push his own agenda as soon as he's elected

The party's focus is about rejoining the EU, not about being independent any more. Getting independence is a means to rejoin the EU, the mask is off. The party are targeting the middle class No voter of 2014 who cares about EU membership more than Scotland's independence. Those same voters will never vote for independence once starmer becomes PM and starts talking about rejoining the EU.

This is a really uninteresting, semantic question that leads nowhere.

Do I need to draw a Venn diagram? The demographic that includes the most people is the one where the only requirement is support for Scottish independence, and is not also predicated on other conditionals. You're not a stupid person, you perfectly well understand this but because you're so arrogant you don't care. In fact, there is nobody who is more sneering and arrogant than an enlightened centrist who uses faulty logic like "because X and Y both disagree with me, that's means Z is right.".

False, my version of independence is open to those that are both pro or anti EU. Seems to be the most inclusive version to me. Stop talking shite

The SNP aren't an independence party, they're a pro EU party. Good luck with the little march tomorrow, I'm sure the Morningside crew will be out in force after they've had brunch and been to yoga class.

Whether its policy I agree with or Loon agrees with is mostly irrelevant, what's most important is that the policy is credible and can be evidenced. The SNP have themselves tied in knots over their own policy positions and the process of having a referendum itself, all of their own doing. They don't know how to get out of the mess they've created, yet they'll still dangle the carrot of independence to their support (because what else are they supposed to do?) The whole party needs a complete reboot but what its members did instead was vote for a continuity, careerist candidate who just wants the privilege of being able to call himself first minister. Perhaps the whole house of cards will come crumbling down and we can start again, but I find it difficult to see how the party actually move forward. Nicola Sturgeon was the worst thing to ever happen to the independence movement.

Take your pick, the point is that whatever the governments position is they need to demonstrate the feasibility of it with evidence. It's just an example.

Is this not self evident?

Eh? I've never suggested the SNP need to please everyone, that's impossible. What I meant when I said that the SNP need to join the dots was to try and make the connection between A) The failures of government in westminster (whether that be Labour or Tory) How the Scottish government would have a different policy to solve problem X, Y or Z C) That this can only be achieved by having independence. D) Here's exactly how we can do it. As you said people already understand point A but they are not connecting the dots to B, C and D and that's what the SNP are responsible for and failing at. We cannot have a referendum until they start making that case and the light bulbs start going off in people's minds. EDIT: I would also add that the SNP are entitled to push whatever policy position they want, but it has to be credible. If they want to sell independence on the notion that Scotland is going to rejoin the EU then they better have some credibility behind that position. How exactly are they going to make that happen? Are we going to join the Euro? etc... If they dont have credible answers then nobody is going to buy what they are selling.

There's no doubt in my mind that if the SNP announced an October referendum today we would lose. I'm not suggesting for one minute that we should be having one because as is perpetually the case with this government, they're not putting the plans in place or campaigning accordingly. How can we convince people to vote yes when we have an incompetent government unwilling to even make the effort to campaign for the cause? The general public can see all the corruption in the world from Westminster but they're not going to put 2 and 2 together if we cannot join the dots and explain to people with confidence that an independent Scotland can do things better. The onus is on the powers that be in Scotland to make the argument and we are failing miserably.

Yeah, at least the national team are doing us proud. But I think it's important to remember what was promised to us by the SNP over and over again and what they have failed to deliver on.

Anyone else excited for indyref 2 in October?

This is a really lazy response so I'll give you the same in return. The bottom line for you is your salary and that's about it, not much else to add.