SNP leadership election

[Orraloon]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

If my term of endearment is annoying you then i will use it more often

One of my pals had a girlfriend years ago with the same surname and that's what we called her

Cheers. I was just interested in case I had missed something. 👍

Call her anything you want, doesn't put me up nor doon.

[phart]

 

[Hertsscot]

4 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

just unsure now, we need someone to unite, this will now be very difficult for Forbes, humza will split the party and really unsure about ash, the biggest thing kate has going for her is there will be zero skeletons

Whoever gets elected there will be people throwing their toys out the pram and cutting up their membership cards. The sad thing is some of those people in spite of claiming to be open minded won't even give whoever is elected a chance to unify the party. Tbh if those SNP members hold their pet projects above independence then their resignation will be no great loss. 

[aaid]

8 minutes ago, phart said:

 

There’s a dishonesty in Forbes’ comments on equal marriage saying that she wouldn’t seek to overturn that law but wouldn’t carry through the challenge to the GRR bill when all that is stopping that becoming law at the moment is the King’s signature which should be an administrative formality. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by aaid

[phart]

2 minutes ago, aaid said:

There’s a dishonesty in Forbes’ comments on equal marriage saying that she wouldn’t seek to overturn that law but wouldn’t carry through the challenge to the GRR bill when all that is stopping that becoming law at the moment is the King’s signature which should be an administrative formality. 

I just like Greer from the time he went on Morgan's show and shat all over the Winston Churchil hagiography and had him apoplectic.

It's also shows the lie in her claiming victimhood that Christians can't be in high office, there's vast swathes of Christians that don't believe the same way as her.

[Hertsscot]

15 minutes ago, phart said:

That's the response I would expect from the Greens. What I find frustrating about the media though is they'll not bother to ask Labour, Lib Dem or Tory backers of GRR whether the Scottish Government should defend it in court. Those replies would be interesting to hear.

[Clyde1998]

3 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Whoever gets elected there will be people throwing their toys out the pram and cutting up their membership cards. The sad thing is some of those people in spite of claiming to be open minded won't even give whoever is elected a chance to unify the party. Tbh if those SNP members hold their pet projects above independence then their resignation will be no great loss. 

The gender issue is the sort of debate we should only be having once we're independent, as it simply divides the independence camp and is a piece of legislation which has far greater political implication than its (potential) effect on the vast majority of people's lives.

Since the 2015 election, I feel the SNP has failed to prioritise the constitution (Scotland's place in the UK) in a meaningful way. In 2015, the party campaigned on Full Fiscal Autonomy to great success, but, aside from the periodic 'we're going to have a referendum at some point in the near future' or 'vote SNP to show support for a referendum', we've seen very little actual campaigning on furthering the independence of Holyrood in any context since then.

I feel this has enabled these sort of debates and driven a wedge between sections of independence supporters, which didn't really exist (in the open at least) in the year or two following the referendum.

This is why I'm increasingly likely to support Ash Regan, as her primary focus seems to be on achieving independence and campaigning for it.

[phart]

1 minute ago, Hertsscot said:

That's the response I would expect from the Greens. What I find frustrating about the media though is they'll not bother to ask Labour, Lib Dem or Tory backers of GRR whether the Scottish Government should defend it in court. Those replies would be interesting to hear.

Yeah I like how the media pursue theindependence parties it's the scrutiny that should be done. However when it comes to the other side it is completely lacking or done in the middle of the paper so to speak, interviews at 3am on hardtalk or something.

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said:

The gender issue is the sort of debate we should only be having once we're independent, as it simply divides the independence camp and is a piece of legislation which has far greater political implication than its (potential) effect on the vast majority of people's lives.

Since the 2015 election, I feel the SNP has failed to prioritise the constitution (Scotland's place in the UK) in a meaningful way. In 2015, the party campaigned on Full Fiscal Autonomy to great success, but, aside from the periodic 'we're going to have a referendum at some point in the near future' or 'vote SNP to show support for a referendum', we've seen very little actual campaigning on furthering the independence of Holyrood in any context since then.

I feel this has enabled these sort of debates and driven a wedge between sections of independence supporters, which didn't really exist (in the open at least) in the year or two following the referendum.

This is why I'm increasingly likely to support Ash Regan, as her primary focus seems to be on achieving independence and campaigning for it.

The only thing I’m certain of is that in this election is that there is absolutely no way that Ash Regan is getting my vote, all I’m trying to decide is whether or not to put her third or not to vote for her at all.

I’m sure that once she starts to be questioned you’ll realise how vacuous she is. 

[hampden_loon2878]

I was talking to a snp staffer this morning and what he said was that really the snp is way to big and what is needed is a trimming down, well that will certainly happen, just hope the sane members remain 

[Ally Bongo]

34 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Whoever gets elected there will be people throwing their toys out the pram and cutting up their membership cards. The sad thing is some of those people in spite of claiming to be open minded won't even give whoever is elected a chance to unify the party. Tbh if those SNP members hold their pet projects above independence then their resignation will be no great loss. 

I am open minded

But if your "whoever" ends up being Humza Yousaf then there is absolutely no point in:

(a) Voting for the SNP because you want Scottish Independence

(b) being a member of the SNP and contributing funds to it 

[Clyde1998]

2 minutes ago, aaid said:

The only thing I’m certain of is that in this election is that there is absolutely no way that Ash Regan is getting my vote, all I’m trying to decide is whether or not to put her third or not to vote for her at all.

I’m sure that once she starts to be questioned you’ll realise how vacuous she is. 

Fair enough; I concede she's not someone I have much knowledge of. There's been very little in the media about her (largely due to it realistically being a contest between Yousaf and Forbes anyway), so I'll have to do a bit more digging about her.

Is she a Truss-like character then?

[Clyde1998]

3 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

I was talking to a snp staffer this morning and what he said was that really the snp is way to big and what is needed is a trimming down, well that will certainly happen, just hope the sane members remain 

The SNP is a giagantic-tent these days - although that monolith within the independence movement has been eroding with the Greens becoming a serious secondary player at Holyrood.

Had Alba taken a few of the more sane SNP members with them, they could've added to the cause through engaging a different electorate than the SNP. The Greens could've kept the liberal-left happy, Alba would've been able to target the soft socially conservative (perhaps centre-right more generally) voters, with the SNP taking the centre/centre-left.

Although depending on how this election goes, a sizable defection towards one of the Greens, Alba or another independence party/group is not inconceivable.

[vanderark14]

What did forbes say that was so wrong last night?

[Bzzzz]

55 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said:

The gender issue is the sort of debate we should only be having once we're independent, as it simply divides the independence camp and is a piece of legislation which has far greater political implication than its (potential) effect on the vast majority of people's lives.

Since the 2015 election, I feel the SNP has failed to prioritise the constitution (Scotland's place in the UK) in a meaningful way. In 2015, the party campaigned on Full Fiscal Autonomy to great success, but, aside from the periodic 'we're going to have a referendum at some point in the near future' or 'vote SNP to show support for a referendum', we've seen very little actual campaigning on furthering the independence of Holyrood in any context since then.

I feel this has enabled these sort of debates and driven a wedge between sections of independence supporters, which didn't really exist (in the open at least) in the year or two following the referendum.

This is why I'm increasingly likely to support Ash Regan, as her primary focus seems to be on achieving independence and campaigning for it.

Same, she was initally my least favourite but if we actually start concentrating ON independence rather than pishing about arguing about the colour of shite then great. We need to somehow stop the unionist media drive arguments, take control and quit bowing to them, we need to be more aggressive, time to give it back.  

[phart]

6 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

What did forbes say that was so wrong last night?

She would have voted to legislate to ensure rights and legal protections held by others were witheld from people based on their sexuality.

That's what she said, whether it is "wrong" will be a subjective thing. In politics folk can vote for you on your views

Edited February 21, 2023 by phart

[TDYER63]

3 hours ago, phart said:

I'm not sure what the definition of separate is for folk, but she is on the record saying she'd vote in line with them(her religious views), there would be no separation same as with Merkel who also voted against on the same issue.

Voting record or knowing how a politician would vote on whatever topics that concern you is the main barometer for most folk on what politician they support.

The independence base is most represented in younger people and they have a real problem with it. The demograph here is older , if you got to other fora where it is much younger , say reddit for example, folk are categorically stating they won't be voting for the SNP. Not that any of this is a proper overview of the country both skewed samples etc.

We're so interwined with America and everyone watched Supreme Court justices say abortion was established and they wouldn't mess with it etc. then see what happened later. This is part of the narrative in some places.

It could well be it's just a couple of echo chambers and most folk don't give a fuck though. Just been finding it interesting cruising from place to place online and seeing what is being said. Not often we get an actual election in the independence minded leadership.

I have no problem of her voting with her belief as long as she doesn’t use her position to force anyone else or influence policy. I am fairly comfortable that in Scotland she would be out voted on this subject at every opportunity so am not overly concerned. I don’t agree with her on this but I am pretty certain I would disagree with Humza Yousaf and Ash Regan on certain things. 

I want the best person available to run the country successfully as that is the only way we will flourish and in turn achieve independence. If young people are more interested in someones views on marriage that is fine and I understand why they would be unhappy but on the big stage it bears very little relevance to the more important aspects of running a country. Choosing the person who says all the right things is not necessarily the best option .

I do know though you are just highlighting the objections and the problems she/SNP could encounter 😊

[aaid]

25 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

What did forbes say that was so wrong last night?

Had she said something similar to this with relation to equal marriage then I doubt anyone would’ve had much of an issue but she didn’t, she said she wouldn’t have voted for equal marriage.

Bit of a poor headline on this article BTW.

 

KATE Forbes has said she believes having children out of wedlock is “wrong”.

The SNP leadership candidate said in an interview with Sky News she believed it was “up to” individuals whether they had children outside of marriage but it was something she would “avoid”.

Asked for her views on having children out of wedlock, she told the broadcaster: “It's entirely up to them. It's something that I would seek to avoid for me personally.

"But it doesn't fuss me, it doesn't put me up nor down. The choices that other people make is [up to them].

"In terms of my faith, my faith would say that sex is for marriage and that's the approach that I would practice."

She added: “She added: "For me, it would be wrong according to my faith, but for you I have no idea what your faith is. So, in a free society you can do what you want."

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23336365.kate-forbes-says-children-outside-marriage-wrong/

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I have no problem of her voting with her belief as long as she doesn’t use her position to force anyone else or influence policy. I am fairly comfortable that in Scotland she would be out voted on this subject at every opportunity so am not overly concerned. I don’t agree with her on this but I am pretty certain I would disagree with Humza Yousaf and Ash Regan on certain things. 

I want the best person available to run the country successfully as that is the only way we will flourish and in turn achieve independence. If young people are more interested in someones views on marriage that is fine and I understand why they would be unhappy but on the big stage it bears very little relevance to the more important aspects of running a country. Choosing the person who says all the right things is not necessarily the best option .

I do know though you are just highlighting the objections and the problems she/SNP could encounter 😊

The problem I am having right now is working out whether I should vote for someone whose views I - in general - agree with but don’t think is fundamentally up to the job or someone who I think is better capable - although that is shrinking by the day - to be FM and leader but some of whose views I find objectionable and don’t trust.

For those that can’t work that out, it’s Humza Yousaf and Kate Forbes in that order.

[AlfieMoon]

Fergus Ewing and Roseanna Cunningham fair did well to survive as ministers and get re-elected. 

[TDYER63]

9 minutes ago, aaid said:

The problem I am having right now is working out whether I should vote for someone whose views I - in general - agree with but don’t think is fundamentally up to the job or someone who I think is better capable - although that is shrinking by the day - to be FM and leader but some of whose views I find objectionable and don’t trust.

For those that can’t work that out, it’s Humza Yousaf and Kate Forbes in that order.

The fact I dont rate Humza at all is making this decision so much easier for me. Choosing the ‘least worst’ candidate is far from ideal though

[phart]

12 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I have no problem of her voting with her belief as long as she doesn’t use her position to force anyone else or influence policy. I am fairly comfortable that in Scotland she would be out voted on this subject at every opportunity so am not overly concerned. I don’t agree with her on this but I am pretty certain I would disagree with Humza Yousaf and Ash Regan on certain things. 

I want the best person available to run the country successfully as that is the only way we will flourish and in turn achieve independence. If young people are more interested in someones views on marriage that is fine and I understand why they would be unhappy but on the big stage it bears very little relevance to the more important aspects of running a country. Choosing the person who says all the right things is not necessarily the best option .

I do know though you are just highlighting the objections and the problems she/SNP could encounter 😊

It's not their views on marriage. It's whether they would legislate on legal rights based on sexuality. It's not oh what's your view on marriage. It's do you restrict rights of people cause they aren't heteroesexual. That's a huge issue for loads of folk.

It's total blinkered being oh young folk are more interested on views on marriage and then basically couching it in frankly condescending language, i'm thinking of the big stage. Equal rights is the big stage.  Alienating your biggest demograph by holding anachronistic views is going to be a disaster.

Let's see what happens and what turns out to be a big stage or not a big stage.

[AlfieMoon]

7 minutes ago, aaid said:

The problem I am having right now is working out whether I should vote for someone whose views I - in general - agree with but don’t think is fundamentally up to the job or someone who I think is better capable - although that is shrinking by the day - to be FM and leader but some of whose views I find objectionable and don’t trust.

For those that can’t work that out, it’s Humza Yousaf and Kate Forbes in that order.

For me personally, I look firstly that she is entitled to those views. If we are a tolerant society, she is stating her beliefs in an honest way. She is not projecting a demonisation of people, but instead stating her beliefs to which she is true.  
 

We are all too quick in society to go on the witch hunt now without taking a step back and taking a breath in my opinion. 
 

Beyond that, I look at her capability as a leader without all of this religious furore. She is the best candidate from a skillset and experience perspective. Now people will say that you can’t separate that from the religious furore and I say that is up to others to decide. 
 

In terms of limiting or mitigating against any abuse of power in her position to impose her views on policy, we have: 

1) A parliamentary democracy for votes. 1 per MSP. 
2) SNP developing policy as a party

3) Elections every 4/5 years. (People can vote her out) 

Not to mention UK Gov and other institutions who can challenge legislation. 
 

For me, the whole thing is a storm in a tea cup but it’s the type of storm that current society is all too eager to get their teeth in to. In reality, Forbes is zero threat to anyone’s rights. What is there to be debated is whether people can accept her as a figurehead. What is playing out on the Twitter and Reddit echo chambers is that we don’t have a society that is tolerant enough to accept her having her beliefs.  
 

[Squirrelhumper]

29 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I have no problem of her voting with her belief as long as she doesn’t use her position to force anyone else or influence policy. I am fairly comfortable that in Scotland she would be out voted on this subject at every opportunity so am not overly concerned. I don’t agree with her on this but I am pretty certain I would disagree with Humza Yousaf and Ash Regan on certain things. 

I want the best person available to run the country successfully as that is the only way we will flourish and in turn achieve independence. If young people are more interested in someones views on marriage that is fine and I understand why they would be unhappy but on the big stage it bears very little relevance to the more important aspects of running a country. Choosing the person who says all the right things is not necessarily the best option .

I do know though you are just highlighting the objections and the problems she/SNP could encounter 😊

Far too sensible a post.

[daviebee]

1 hour ago, Clyde1998 said:

Fair enough; I concede she's not someone I have much knowledge of. There's been very little in the media about her (largely due to it realistically being a contest between Yousaf and Forbes anyway), so I'll have to do a bit more digging about her.

Is she a Truss-like character then?

She's pledged to work with the other indy parties and the wider Yes movement. That doesn't sit well with the "only through the SNP shall ye be saved" mob.  She sounds like a breath of fresh air to me.