Afghanistan

[Morrisandmoo]

5 minutes ago, slasher said:

Afghanistan 3 USA 1

Final score? 

I want to see how Afghanistan fair in an away leg! By all accounts they might be able to hold their own in Washington. 

[slasher]

1 minute ago, Morrisandmoo said:

I want to see how Afghanistan fair in an away leg! By all accounts they might be able to hold their own in Washington. 

The Russians are in my opinion more ruthless than Westerners and they left with their tails between their legs. We should have stayed out and tried to influence in other ways. 

[exile]

8 hours ago, phart said:

Biden said like 6 weeks ago there would be no Saigon style evacuations...

Another shambles by NATO and allies.

 

Indeed. Not quite the same but the difference between 'withdrawal' and 'evacuation' is telling. 

And just how bad things are will depend on what happens next. 

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, exile said:

Indeed. Not quite the same but the difference between 'withdrawal' and 'evacuation' is telling. 

And just how bad things are will depend on what happens next. 

It’s a complete failure of US and UK foreign policy and intelligence. 

[vanderark14]

The videos at Kabul Airport are insane. 

There's two videos apparently showing people falling from a USAF plane, they were clinging to it as it took off.

People on the runway as planes take off, its desperate and chaotic

[Morrisandmoo]

Defence Secretary (genuinely) distraught, realising this is all ending in the worst way for a lot of people

 

 

[Scotty CTA]

3 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

The videos at Kabul Airport are insane. 

There's two videos apparently showing people falling from a USAF plane, they were clinging to it as it took off.

People on the runway as planes take off, its desperate and chaotic

Reminiscent of the fall of Saigon.

[86glebestreet]

1 hour ago, Scotty CTA said:

Reminiscent of the fall of Saigon.

Looks like same guy in both photos 

[kumnio]

The videos at the airport are staggering. They show how desperate people are to leave, imagine thinking that holding onto the outside of a plane is a better option than staying in your country. I don’t think we can ever understand the absolute turmoil that will be happening to people there now. It is literally life ending for so many. 

[exile]

23 minutes ago, kumnio said:

The videos at the airport are staggering. They show how desperate people are to leave, imagine thinking that holding onto the outside of a plane is a better option than staying in your country. I don’t think we can ever understand the absolute turmoil that will be happening to people there now. It is literally life ending for so many. 

As someone said: "Don't ask why they clung to the plane. Ask why the plane took off."

[TDYER63]

It will be like every other tragedy . There will be a stooshie for a couple of weeks and then it will slowly work its way down the news, like the young refugee boy whose body was washed up onto the beach . By Halloween we will have moved onto the next humanitarian horror . 

[Scotty CTA]

2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

It will be like every other tragedy.

No, this is bigger IMHO.

[thplinth]

2 hours ago, exile said:

As someone said: "Don't ask why they clung to the plane. Ask why the plane took off."

Tell someone it is the same answer.

[scotlad]

On 8/15/2021 at 9:15 PM, phart said:

Make money for certain companies.

Taliban have more US war shit now than almost every other country.

I saw this today and found it quite interesting: https://theconversation.com/amp/the-taliban-are-megarich-heres-where-they-get-the-money-they-use-to-wage-war-in-afghanistan-147411?__twitter_impression=true

[phart]

4 hours ago, scotlad said:

I saw this today and found it quite interesting: https://theconversation.com/amp/the-taliban-are-megarich-heres-where-they-get-the-money-they-use-to-wage-war-in-afghanistan-147411?__twitter_impression=true

There's been headlines like this for years about the Taliban, once Trump signed the peace deal with the Taliban a year or so ago this was inevitable. The withdrawl was due to take place March this year but Biden won the election and extended it till 31st August. Although to be fair to both they inherited the situation not of their making.

[thplinth]

The reason this is now a shambles is that BIden reneged on the deal made with the Taliban during the Trump presidency.

They just could not stand the thought of it giving Trump any credit so they broke their word.

The Taliban might be a lot of things but when you make a deal with them they will stick to their word and it is equally important you do as well. In that part of the world a persons word still matters.

When Biden decided to grandstand this deal he made it inevitable that when he did decide eventually to hold up the US end of the bargain the Taliban were not going to be patient anymore and stick to the terms of the deal brokered under Trump (as the US had just wiped its arse with it).

This current mess is all down Biden. He is an incompetent clown.

This was released a few days prior to this utter fiasco unfolding. Priorities I guess... 

 

[Hertsscot]

8 hours ago, scotlad said:

I saw this today and found it quite interesting: https://theconversation.com/amp/the-taliban-are-megarich-heres-where-they-get-the-money-they-use-to-wage-war-in-afghanistan-147411?__twitter_impression=true

There was an interesting interview on Five Live yesterday with Gretchen Peters ( I thought she was an American singer but turns out there's more than one). She was making the point that the Taliban had accumulated so much wealth that they had largely bribed their way to power, offering local officials a choice between a wallet full of silver or a chest (as in torso) full of lead. Unsurprisingly most opted for the former. Looks like the West have been out thought as much as our fought.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Hertsscot

[thplinth]

The Afghan army just totally melted.

Even the Taliban were surprised. Check out the video for the rather amusing voice over translation of the Taliban geezer.

https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2021/08/17/664595/Collapse-of-Kabul-a-surprise-incident-even-for-Taliban

Maybe this explains their dislike of translators...

[TDYER63]

10 hours ago, Scotty CTA said:

No, this is bigger IMHO.

It is bigger in as much as the Taliban are a  threat to the West therefore will create more coverage, but as far as concern about the welfare of the innocent  people in Afghanistan is concerned it will slowly become unimportant,  and emphasis will move back to terrorism that threatens the US and UK. 
I am not saying that isn’t important, but it always ends up with how it affects us, not them.  
With the Syrian refugee crisis it was shock to start with and we must do what we can to help. Now its  ‘ oh , but we cant afford to keep them here’ .  

[Morrisandmoo]

20 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

It is bigger in as much as the Taliban are a  threat to the West therefore will create more coverage, but as far as concern about the welfare of the innocent  people in Afghanistan is concerned it will slowly become unimportant,  and emphasis will move back to terrorism that threatens the US and UK. 
I am not saying that isn’t important, but it always ends up with how it affects us, not them.  
With the Syrian refugee crisis it was shock to start with and we must do what we can to help. Now its  ‘ oh , but we cant afford to keep them here’ .  

It's also the fact that our ability to report problems is much greater than our ability to solve problems (even with the best will in the world). And people eventually turn a blind eye to misery which is unchanging and outwith their control. 

The reality is that the fate of the people in Afghanistan is now largely in the hands of the Taliban. And there is nothing much we can realistically do about that. No matter how bad we feel. 20 years of war didn't keep the fuckers down. It's a long slog now to try to move the Taliban towards a more tolerant worldview. 

The fact the Taliban are rich should help. They will want to spend their money. And they have something to lose by being dicks to everyone. The media continuing to shine a light on them will help, so hopefully our attention holds for as long as it can. 

[phart]

That's why GOP is removing the internet the details of the Trump deal.

 

I'll need to see the details of what was actually broken and what the actual changes are to evaluate it. A lot of insinuation and no detail. How that difference would then have made a material difference to the outcome etc.

NPR is where i firts read about it last december

Former President Donald Trump agreed with the Taliban last year to pull U.S. troops from the country in exchange for commitments on peace talks and other issues. At that time, there were more than 12,000 troops there, down from a peak of more than 100,000 in 2011.

Currently, 2,500 troops remain, although The New York Times reported last week that there were as many as 1,000 more Special Operations forces also in the country.

Asked how long U.S. troops could remain in Afghanistan, Biden said, "I don't think a lot longer," saying the May 1 deadline "could happen, but it is tough."

 

Biden blamed the delay on the delay in the transition process after the election. "The failure to have an orderly transition from the Trump presidency to my presidency... has cost me time and consequences," he said.

Biden's national security adviser Jake Sullivan had warned in December that the lack of cooperation on transition issues with the Trump administration could lead to a delay in the withdrawal.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/17/978106035/biden-says-u-s-may-miss-deadline-for-withdrawing-troops-from-afghanistan

Edited August 17, 2021 by phart

[thplinth]

https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2021/08/inside-reach-871-us-c-17-packed-640-people-trying-escape-taliban/184563/

Read the one with the folk clinging to it had 800 aboard!

That image of them clinging to the plane as it taxied down the runway will be the iconic image of this collapse and the folk falling were eerily reminiscent of the falling people on 911.

Ach well onto Iran!

The full uncropped photo from the inside of Reach 871, a U.S. Air Force C-17 flown from Kabul to Qatar on Aug. 15.

 

 

[thplinth]

 

[ThistleWhistle]

6 hours ago, phart said:

There's been headlines like this for years about the Taliban, once Trump signed the peace deal with the Taliban a year or so ago this was inevitable. The withdrawl was due to take place March this year but Biden won the election and extended it till 31st August. Although to be fair to both they inherited the situation not of their making.

Seems totally surreal that the Taliban have essentially won via the strategy and tactics of capitalism/ market forces.  From the article above their budget is $1.6billion which is equivalent to half a day of US defence spending so you’d have hoped someone would have had the foresight to rattle the biscuit tin in the direction of the various tribal factions even to keep them onside for pretence for a few years. 

 

There was a Doctor of War Studies on Sky this morning saying the failings were political in that they tried to win the hearts and minds of the locals but were only dealing with moderates really in the cities whereas the various factions in the sticks weren’t really included.  It’s pretty much the root cause of the Britain’s shambles in the 19^th Century and it was the regions, funded by the west, that were at war with the Soviet’s for a decade so pretty depressing history is littered with making the same mistakes over and over. 

[scotlad]

2 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

There was an interesting interview on Five Live yesterday with Gretchen Peters ( I thought she was an American singer but turns out there's more than one). She was making the point that the Taliban had accumulated so much wealth that they had largely bribed their way to power, offering local officials a choice between a wallet full of silver or a chest (as in torso) full of lead. Unsurprisingly most opted for the former. Looks like the West have been out thought as much as our fought.

I'd heard something similar too, about senior politicians being bribed, hence it was a virtual walkover for the Taliban.

From that Hanif Sufizada article it appears they're cleverer then they're often given credit for. They appear to operate as part-gangsters/part-government (some may say there's little difference!).

Selling drugs to fund their operations is a bit naughty though, but hey, they wouldn't be the first "government" to do that!