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Where did it all go wrong? Should Western forces have intervened militarily? Was there any alternative after 9/11?  Have all the deaths of Western servicemen and women, aid workers and not least Afghan citizens been in vain? The speed of Taliban advances is frightening, a horrible situation is unfolding and it just looks like we've abandoned them. Will we be back then in a few years time?

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I think it’s time that we, and the yanks just admit that we simply don’t care about humanitarian issues. We invade countries for vengeance and profits, nothing else.

We don’t give a flying fuck about the normal men, women and kids in Afghanistan, and never have. There will be god knows how men who will be used as target practice for whatever stupid reason, women who will have their liberties taken away from them, and many girls who will now be victims of rape, child marriage etc

By most accounts, the Taliban are now in their strongest position, it’s probably only a matter of time before Kabul falls. Could it have been any different? Probably not, not unless we stayed there long term, but that only leads to further problems. 

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I remember (among many at the time) asking questions like, how many innocents will die, what for? what next? when will you know when you're done? I don't remember getting any answers. Maybe it's time for supporters of the war to answer, now. Starting with Tony Blair. 

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7 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Was there any alternative after 9/11?  

Not really.

The perps for the most part got away with their deception.

No one with any real power could do anything.

The countries invaded didn't even have any phoney hijackers as representatives, and no weapons of mass destruction were found.

The prideful know-nothing sheeple who mocked and tried to silence the truthers are truly among the guilty.

Our only hope, the only thing they feared, was them being exposed.

Dark can't function in light.

The news (the script) is brought to us by evil cowards with an easily played and feart audience.

And so... we helplessly watch (again).

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For me the pivotal moment in the US traces back to Eisenhowers famous warning in his farewell address as president. It was then less than 3 years later that they painted Kennedy's brains all over the back of his limo in broad daylight in front of his wife. He was killed essentially because he was trying to make peace and that was a statement killing.

Less than 5 years after that they killed his brother in similar fashion because he would have reopened the investigations when elected president and exposed what they did.

After that no American president has challenged 'them'.  And this was 60 years ago now. 

911 is an event that was ruthlessly exploited to attack a number of countries and let loose the 'war on terror'. Just another pretext for endless war on mostly defenseless countries by the war machine. And if you look at 911 it is not what they tell us. Another phony event this time to engineer consent for guess what... endless war. War on a concept. Like the War on Drugs... They do like their wars. The heavy involvement of another small middle eastern country in all of this is also key to understanding events.

They create their own enemies because they desperately need someone to 'fight'. Otherwise they would be all tooled up with no one to kill. Very embarrassing when you seek to renew your ever expanding budget.

I find the notion that any of what is being done is on 'humanitarian' grounds really quite hilarious. It is so far from the truth it is unreal. They could not give less of a shit about the incredible human suffering they generate. That is very clear.

What a world we could be living in with decent health care and education and housing and a way of life that is not a 'rat race'. But instead obscene amounts get used to build nuclear submarine bases and missile silos 25km from Scotland biggest population centre (by far), amongst many other colossal wastes of money.

And we in the UK and now especially Scotland under Sturgeon are utter lapdogs to it all. Great.

It is a bit of a beemur to be honest. 

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Outstanding post!

3 hours ago, thplinth said:

For me the pivotal moment in the US traces back to Eisenhower's famous warning in his farewell address as president.

The speech

As early as 1959, Eisenhower began working with his brother Milton and his speechwriters, including his chief speechwriter Malcolm Moos, to develop his final statement as he left public life. It went through at least 21 drafts. The speech was "a solemn moment in a decidedly unsolemn time", warning a nation "giddy with prosperity, infatuated with youth and glamour, and aiming increasingly for the easy life."

"As we peer into society's future, we – you and I, and our government – must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for our own ease and convenience the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow."

Despite his military background and being the only general to be elected president in the 20th century, he warned the nation with regard to the corrupting influence of what he describes as the "military-industrial complex".

"Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States corporations.

Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence—economic, political, even spiritual—is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry (!) can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

He also expressed his concomitant concern for corruption of the scientific process as part of this centralization of funding in the Federal government, and vice versa:

"Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.

In this revolution, research has become central, it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocation, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.

Yet in holding scientific discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite."

----------------------

Bernie Sanders ad...

 

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3 hours ago, thplinth said:

It was then less than 3 years later that they painted Kennedy's brains all over the back of his limo in broad daylight in front of his wife. He was killed essentially because he was trying to make peace and that was a statement killing.

They were never going to let JFK pull troops out of SE Asia.

3 hours ago, thplinth said:

Less than 5 years after that they killed his brother in similar fashion because he would have reopened the investigations when elected president and exposed what they did.

Watergate, in truth, was also about protecting the secrets of those involved in the JFK assassination.

3 hours ago, thplinth said:

After that no American president has challenged 'them'.  And this was 60 years ago now. 

No president since Kennedy has truly been elected, either.

They have been 'selected'.

3 hours ago, thplinth said:

911 is an event that was ruthlessly exploited to attack a number of countries and let loose the 'war on terror'. Just another pretext for endless war on mostly defenseless countries by the war machine. And if you look at 911 it is not what they tell us. Another phony event this time to engineer consent for guess what... endless war. War on a concept. Like the War on Drugs... They do like their wars. 

A false flag.

The Hegelian tactic of 'problem/reaction/solution' played out in epic proportions.

3 hours ago, thplinth said:

The heavy involvement of another small middle eastern country in all of this is also key to understanding events.

Everything gets played out (one way or another) through and by Israel.

For better or worse, they are God's timepiece on the Biblical timeline.

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Should have rephrased OP. 'Conspiracy theories aside, where did it all go wrong?' If we'd stayed another 20 years would the end result be any different?  Johnson says there is no military solution but is there any solution, because Western diplomacy has not solved things either.

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31 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Should have rephrased OP. 'Conspiracy theories aside...

What part of "only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry" didn't resinate with you?

You can't get at the hidden reality of the truth without recognising the bigger picture.

Those in charge don't have our best interests at heart and have no intention of trying to solve the world's 'problems'.

They are the cause of them.

They have a different agenda.

40 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

...where did it all go wrong?'

Depends who you ask.

The 'elite' would say that things are wonderfully on schedule.

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According to TOLOnews in Afghanistan,

 

Afghan Acting Interior Minister Abdul Sattar Mirzakwal said Kabul will not be attacked and that the transition will happen peacefully.

Some interpreting as surrender.

Meanwhile US helicopter spotted over US embassy in Kabul (AP) 

Image

 

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The US and the UK should never have been in there in the first place. The Taliban sent the Russians packing all those years ago. That should have been enough of a warning.

It was all supposed to have been about the Taliban refusing to hand over Nin Laden. Neighbouring Arab states had been harbouring terrorist nutters years before 9/11. Ahmed Jibril, the real brains behind the Lockerbie bombing, being one of them. We didn’t see any US invasions then.

Time to let the Afghans sort it themselves now. This operation has seen so many lives wasted for nothing

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Seems that Taliban have surrounded Kabul.

The Afghan president Ghani is relinquishing power and an interim government led by Taliban is formed — Al Arabiya

Foreigners will be allowed to leave Kabul through its airport, Taliban official says — Al Arabiya

Edited by exile
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7 hours ago, chaff said:

It begs the question, who's next? Iran?

That would probably be the bookies favourite. Let's face it they are running out of countries to destroy anyway. 

Hmmm... so I guess this means the Taliban will be back in Kabul and running Afghanistan just in time for the 20th anniversary of 911. Whooops.

 

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10 hours ago, King Of Paisley said:

The US and the UK should never have been in there in the first place. The Taliban sent the Russians packing all those years ago. That should have been enough of a warning.

It was all supposed to have been about the Taliban refusing to hand over Nin Laden. Neighbouring Arab states had been harbouring terrorist nutters years before 9/11. Ahmed Jibril, the real brains behind the Lockerbie bombing, being one of them. We didn’t see any US invasions then.

Time to let the Afghans sort it themselves now. This operation has seen so many lives wasted for nothing

Spot on. If both the red army and the 19th century British army - when the British Empire was at the peak of its powers - couldn't conquer the place, there was no virtually chance of making a success of it now.  The whole operation was surely set up to fail; to what ends I'm not sure.

Another thing I've wondered about - who is arming the Taliban and why?

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3 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Spot on. If both the red army and the 19th century British army - when the British Empire was at the peak of its powers - couldn't conquer the place, there was no virtually chance of making a success of it now.  The whole operation was surely set up to fail; to what ends I'm not sure.

Another thing I've wondered about - who is arming the Taliban and why?

Make money for certain companies.

Taliban have more US war shit now than almost every other country.

Edited by phart
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6 hours ago, thplinth said:

That would probably be the bookies favourite. Let's face it they are running out of countries to destroy anyway. 

Hmmm... so I guess this means the Taliban will be back in Kabul and running Afghanistan just in time for the 20th anniversary of 911. Whooops.

 

There's a lot of wealth in Africa but I think the Chinese are too heavily involved in that continent for the US to go thundering in, you'd also have slavery parallels that wouldn't go down well with the population.

Aye, Iran is favourite. 

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On 8/13/2021 at 7:45 PM, Hertsscot said:

Where did it all go wrong? Should Western forces have intervened militarily? Was there any alternative after 9/11?  Have all the deaths of Western servicemen and women, aid workers and not least Afghan citizens been in vain? 

Whether Afghanistan ends up back where it started, better or worse remains to be seen I think. 

Whether there was an alternative, I mean no doubt. However, post 9/11 there was a remarkably broad consensus for the so-called "war on terror". The US/UK (and friends) went into Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden and wage war on Al-Qaeda. And it's hard to imagine them doing anything other than that if they had the chance to do it over.  

Going beyond that and trying to install an alternative government to the Taliban was probably always going to be a fools errand. And I'm not sure, once you've committed yourself, whether there is ever a right time to leave. I mean it's been 20 years for fuck sake and the Taliban have just bounced back like it's nothing. Not sure if we hung about for another 10 that the result wouldn't be just the same. 

Given where we are now, we should try to hold the Taliban to their promise of a peaceful transition and more progressive policies (using whatever carrots and sticks we have left)- in the (perhaps) hopeless hope that it's more than just propaganda on their part. 

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16 minutes ago, chaff said:

There's a lot of wealth in Africa but I think the Chinese are too heavily involved in that continent for the US to go thundering in, you'd also have slavery parallels that wouldn't go down well with the population.

Aye, Iran is favourite. 

'NATO' in the black sea acting as agent provocateur. Bit of mission drift I think there folks...

It is out of control. They are pushing China as well.

When you realize they see you with as much human worth as a Syrian then you realize the danger you are in. (And they do, don't doubt it.)

The word that keeps reoccurring Chaff is Evil. 

Yeah... lol. I am not religious. 

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24 minutes ago, Morrisandmoo said:

Whether Afghanistan ends up back where it started, better or worse remains to be seen I think. 

Whether there was an alternative, I mean no doubt. However, post 9/11 there was a remarkably broad consensus for the so-called "war on terror". The US/UK (and friends) went into Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden and wage war on Al-Qaeda. And it's hard to imagine them doing anything other than that if they had the chance to do it over.  

Going beyond that and trying to install an alternative government to the Taliban was probably always going to be a fools errand. And I'm not sure, once you've committed yourself, whether there is ever a right time to leave. I mean it's been 20 years for fuck sake and the Taliban have just bounced back like it's nothing. Not sure if we hung about for another 10 that the result wouldn't be just the same. 

Given where we are now, we should try to hold the Taliban to their promise of a peaceful transition and more progressive policies (using whatever carrots and sticks we have left)- in the (perhaps) hopeless hope that it's more than just propaganda on their part. 

Afghanistan 3 USA 1

Final score? 

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