Expectation and Reality

[er yir macaroon]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

How often were we exposed on the left hand side and how many good deliveries came in from our left hand side?

We are strong on the left hand side and weak on the right.  That was why Croatia targeted that side.  That's not a criticism of either O'Donnell or McTominey, more the reality that Tierney and Robertson are probably two of the better left sided defenders in Europe at the moment.

 

It’s in front of the line of three that we are exposed, as the midfielders have too much work to do and the centre halves are reluctant to break the line to engage attackers. Same problem we had against Israel. No lessons learned. 

[exile]

9 hours ago, er yir macaroon said:

Everyone I spoke to wanted Gilmour to start v the Czechs. When McGregor came on instead of him I knew the game was up. Clarke made a total arse of this tournament and failed to learn anything from the Israel games (this being the most damning point). 

Sure, those in the know would want Gilmour to start, but he was still a bit of an unknown quantity, so there was a wider sense of deflation when Tierney was out, than when Gilmour didn't make it on to the first teamsheet.

[ceudmilefailte]

9 hours ago, er yir macaroon said:

Everyone I spoke to wanted Gilmour to start v the Czechs. When McGregor came on instead of him I knew the game was up. Clarke made a total arse of this tournament and failed to learn anything from the Israel games (this being the most damning point). 

Go comment on the Clarke love in thread

[exile]

I've come to the conclusion that although many people's expectations may have run ahead of reality, they are lower than in the past.

Thinking back to the teams of the 70s, we had the equivalent of not just a European Cup/Champions League winning defender but also established champions' midfielder and striker. So its no surprise that expectations of 'what could be' would be sky high. Also Scotland were I assume, at least in 78, supposed to be second seeds? At least I thought the expectation was we were supposed to be above Peru and Iran, so coming 3rd was perceived as an under-achievement. Whereas we gradually slid to third and finally 4th seed, where we are expected to come last. So we are now just disappointed at not over-achieving!

But there is still a gulf between how close we came back in the 70s and this time. There would still be plenty room for a more agonising unlucky exit than what actually happened. 

 

 

[thesaint]

Enjoyed the whole euro experience,the buzz around the country and especially the trip to wembley.In the end though,it was a bit of a poor effort to not manage to get one point from two home games.Without doubt,a good bit more positivity required by the manager,if we want to get to the next level.

[gkm_vancouver]

11 hours ago, aaid said:

Did Clarke make mistakes during the tournament, with the benefit of hindsight, yes.  Arguably he should've made a more adventurous selection in the game against the Czech Republic although we made more than enough chances in that game to win it, even taking into account the two poor goals we conceded.

He made mistakes before the tournament which continued into the tournament

Did some players underperform, I would say no, I struggle to think of anyone. 

Agree on the players, they were given some poor direction and management (England game excepted)

We have had some key positions/areas where we have been weak for probably the best part of a decade.  Centre Halves, Right Back, Forwards and that showed in the finals.

Every team has that though and there were options he could have taken before the tournament which would have better prepared us

Not all doom and gloom though.  I think Clarke will be a better manager for this experience 

Not so sure about that. Good will and support will diminish very quickly if he does not get some good quick results. Lessons learnt pre-Serbia to get us here do not seem to have progressed Post-Serbia

He's cracked what managers have struggled to do since they came to prominence and found a system that enables two of his best players - Tierney and Robertson - to play to their potential.   

And whilst Robbo performed well in al 3 games, we didn't really see the best of Tierney - another mistake in playing him in friendlies which must have contributed to his injury for the Czech game
 

 

6 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

Didn't Clarke talk about becoming hard to beat after the Russia and Belgium thumpings? Getting back to that state would be a start.

Correct - all the good work in going on the long unbeaten run and building momentum was lost post-Serbia and we've gone back to chasing the game and mixed performances, in some ways even going backwards IMO

If we don't have expectation above reality what is the point of watching games? 

In my view Clarke started well by acknowledging our weaknesses then setting about  shoring up the defence, working in Tierney/Robbo, making us hard to beat and even getting a number of wins under our belt. He also did well in bringing in some good new players.

First big mistake was allowing the team to go way over the top in the Serbia celebrations. In the modern game, drinking alcohol at all is scoffed at never mind getting totally bladdered with two important WC games in the next few days -  which we went on to lose. Our momentum was lost. OK the unbeaten run would have to finish  sometime but 2 defeats including the ongoing struggle we have in beating Israel - basically suggested that we needed a Plan B if 5 at the back didn't work. The warning signs were there at that time. For Israel we eventually reverted to a back four and looked a lot more dangerous and attacking but too late to have effect and the game was gone - a returning theme in the Euros.

I don't think we have really progressed since Serbia in terms of tactics/formations and have gone from a long unbeaten run to 2 wins in ten; no real positive alternative formation; not capitalised on our strongest area in midfield; not been brave enough to make quick decisions. 

So when we came to game one he reverted to type and ended up chasing the game after getting caught and going behind. If we'd managed to take the lead against Czechs we could then have defended it and use our younger faster players to possibly sneak a second. We never really looked like that was an option. Lessons should have been learnt after Serbia to prepare us better for June and if Clarke does not get some good results quickly his reputation will bomb and we'll end up with another Vogts/Levein type figure

 

[dezmondo]

2 hours ago, gkm_vancouver said:

 

If we don't have expectation above reality what is the point of watching games? 

In my view Clarke started well by acknowledging our weaknesses then setting about  shoring up the defence, working in Tierney/Robbo, making us hard to beat and even getting a number of wins under our belt. He also did well in bringing in some good new players.

First big mistake was allowing the team to go way over the top in the Serbia celebrations. In the modern game, drinking alcohol at all is scoffed at never mind getting totally bladdered with two important WC games in the next few days -  which we went on to lose. Our momentum was lost. OK the unbeaten run would have to finish  sometime but 2 defeats including the ongoing struggle we have in beating Israel - basically suggested that we needed a Plan B if 5 at the back didn't work. The warning signs were there at that time. For Israel we eventually reverted to a back four and looked a lot more dangerous and attacking but too late to have effect and the game was gone - a returning theme in the Euros.

I don't think we have really progressed since Serbia in terms of tactics/formations and have gone from a long unbeaten run to 2 wins in ten; no real positive alternative formation; not capitalised on our strongest area in midfield; not been brave enough to make quick decisions. 

So when we came to game one he reverted to type and ended up chasing the game after getting caught and going behind. If we'd managed to take the lead against Czechs we could then have defended it and use our younger faster players to possibly sneak a second. We never really looked like that was an option. Lessons should have been learnt after Serbia to prepare us better for June and if Clarke does not get some good results quickly his reputation will bomb and we'll end up with another Vogts/Levein type figure

 

Exactly. If football was simply about who had the better team on paper then there would be no point playing any matches! 

The acceptance from some fans is sickening. There are plenty of teams punching above their weight and there is nothing to stop us from doing similar with the squad of players we now have. I mean FFS, Wales knocked out Belgium 5 years ago!! 

Our expectations should be higher, we should be asking questions and we should be performing better. 

I'm certain results will not improve and we'll appoint another manager who won't be brave enough to take us forward. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by dezmondo

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

16 hours ago, Third Lanark said:

Didn't Clarke talk about becoming hard to beat after the Russia and Belgium thumpings? Getting back to that state would be a start.

I would say harder to beat. Letting in less goals, but ultimately, still getting beat

Edited June 25, 2021 by Bobby Russell's Lovechild

[Toepoke]

13 hours ago, exile said:

I've come to the conclusion that although many people's expectations may have run ahead of reality, they are lower than in the past.

Thinking back to the teams of the 70s, we had the equivalent of not just a European Cup/Champions League winning defender but also established champions' midfielder and striker. So its no surprise that expectations of 'what could be' would be sky high. Also Scotland were I assume, at least in 78, supposed to be second seeds? At least I thought the expectation was we were supposed to be above Peru and Iran, so coming 3rd was perceived as an under-achievement. Whereas we gradually slid to third and finally 4th seed, where we are expected to come last. So we are now just disappointed at not over-achieving!

But there is still a gulf between how close we came back in the 70s and this time. There would still be plenty room for a more agonising unlucky exit than what actually happened. 

 

 

We were ranked 4th in the world prior to Argentina 78...

https://www.eloratings.net/1978_start

Interesting to look down that table and see that Iran were ranked above Peru!

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Toepoke

[Third Lanark]

One thing no one has yet mentioned is the lack of wide players (hesitate to call them wingers) emerging. Forrest is in the latter stages of his career, so we only really have Fraser. And most of the younger ones (Middleton, Kai Kennedy) are left-footed. Dunno about the boy Fiorini. We lament the lack of centre forwards, but good teams rely on other players to get goals from midfield and from the flanks - people like Griezmann for instance.

I just wish Ryan Kent was eligible. England don't seem to want him, and I don't see anyone much better in their squad.

[ceudmilefailte]

2 hours ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

I would say harder to beat. Letting in less goals, but ultimately, still getting beat

Suppose 3 is less than 4.

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

We were ranked 4th in the world prior to Argentina 78...

https://www.eloratings.net/1978_start

Interesting to look down that table and see that Iran were ranked above Peru!

 

Actually looking at the latest rankings Peru and Iran are still inseparable 

https://www.eloratings.net/2021

 

[Mickey The Brave]

I think a reality check was needed for a lot of people as to the whole situation here, long before the tournament got underway.

We qualified through effectively winning Nations League C, a competition which basically found the 25th-best team in Europe. So, because of some bizarre decision from UEFA, the team who were 25th in Europe were rewarded with a place in the finals, along with Macedonia, who won a competition to find the 40th-best team in Europe. We didn’t earn our place at a 24-team finals on merit. Even then, we needed the lottery of two penalty shoot-outs to get there, so in reality, we’re still a way off actually qualifying for a major tournament on merit. As far as I’m concerned, it’s still 23-years-and-counting.

I wish some of the media and people within the squad would be more honest about this. I love James McFadden, but some of the over-hyped rubbish he’s written and spoken about our current situation is embarrassing.

The best possible analysis of our level is that we have played Israel six times in competitive matches, within the last three years. Three at home, and three away. We have a record of one win, three draws, and two defeats in those matches. Israel are ranked 85th in the world.

 

There used to be a similar number of places up for grabs for European teams in World Cup qualifying, and European Championship qualifying. That has obviously changed now. The World Cup is way beyond our reach as things stand, both in this qualifying campaign and in future qualifying campaigns. We are currently ranked as the 25th best team in Europe, and I believe there are usually around 13 European places available for World Cups. We have a lot of gradual improving to be done, before we have any sort of shot at that. The majority of places are taken up by a select group of ‘big’ teams, leaving more than 40 countries scrapping over four or five places. There are lots of consistent and decent teams who are several levels above us in the pecking order for those final few places.

Obviously, the European Championships, every four years, should now be our bread and butter, in terms of our aims. I’ve never been bothered about ‘qualification for qualification’s sake.’ I don’t care whether we qualify for one particular tournament or not. Some of our fans still draw this rigid line at ‘qualification = success, non-qualification = failure,’ in terms of how they judge a campaign, a manager, and a group of players. That hasn’t been a relevant barometer for us for over 20 years. We have to look beyond individual qualifying campaigns and the outcome of those, and look for gradual long-term progress up the pecking order. Then, as a consequence, we will find ourselves qualifying more regularly. This obsession with qualification as a goal, as opposed to general improvement, is such a short-sighted and damaging way of looking at things.

We have to give whichever manager is in charge years and years and years to build a team, a structure, a mentality, an ethos. We might not agree with the choice of manager, or their formation choices, team selections, or whatever, but our job is to support the team. We don’t need to be on message boards, phone-ins and social media, making over-the-top criticisms of them, and demanding their removal. The same goes for our treatment of the players. 

Similarly, we have to stop thinking we know better than the manager about what formations and players should be used. We don’t. It’s very easy to sit on a message board and say ‘this is the line-up we should be playing.’ The manager is the only one whose team selection actually has to go out and play the match. This isn’t FIFA or Football Manager. It isn’t as simple as so many people seem to think. You can’t magically click ‘more attacking mindset’ or change to a different formation and then suddenly the game automatically swings the way you want it to. 
 

For years and years now, we have had good midfielders. We currently have good left-backs to go with that. However, in defence, up front, and creatively, we are sorely, sorely lacking. That’s not the manager’s fault. The Scotland managers for years now have been making the best of a bad lot. We can’t succeed until decent attacking and defensive players start coming through, and giving the manager options in those positions. Cooper, Hanley and Hendry look like the best selection of centre backs we’ve had for a while now. The options at the other end of the pitch are as poor as ever though. Che Adams will be carrying a lot of responsibility for us over the next few years I think.

 

In conclusion, a total reality check, patience, respect for the manager and players, and gradual improvement are what’s needed!

[gkm_vancouver]

24 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

I think a reality check was needed for a lot of people as to the whole situation here, long before the tournament got underway.

 We don’t need to be on message boards, phone-ins and social media, making over-the-top criticisms of them, and demanding their removal. The same goes for our treatment of the players. 
 

Ok, feck off then and away and tell some others how to support their national team. You have only joined on Sunday, had 2 posts  and you have taken it upon yourself you know better than the 80,000 other members??

Do yourself a favour and feckin do one mate 

[killiefaetheferry]

5 minutes ago, gkm_vancouver said:

Ok, feck off then and away and tell some others how to support their national team. You have only joined on Sunday, had 2 posts  and you have taken it upon yourself you know better than the 80,000 other members??

Do yourself a favour and feckin do one mate 

He makes some salient points.

[kumnio]

36 minutes ago, Mickey The Brave said:

We have to give whichever manager is in charge years and years and years to build a team, a structure, a mentality, an ethos. We might not agree with the choice of manager, or their formation choices, team selections, or whatever, but our job is to support the team. We don’t need to be on message boards, phone-ins and social media, making over-the-top criticisms of them, and demanding their removal. The same goes for our treatment of the players. 

Absolute lack of reality here. Patience is earned, not given. 
 

[Third Lanark]

4 minutes ago, killiefaetheferry said:

He makes some salient points.

Yeah, you are being a bit harsh I think. Point he makes about pundits is a good one, though Pat Nevin was far worse than Faddy, saying he would take McGinn over Modric any day; that comment has totally discredited him in my eyes.

[Mickey The Brave]

3 minutes ago, kumnio said:

Absolute lack of reality here. Patience is earned, not given. 
 

What does that mean? Earned how?

[Mickey The Brave]

14 minutes ago, gkm_vancouver said:

Ok, feck off then and away and tell some others how to support their national team. You have only joined on Sunday, had 2 posts  and you have taken it upon yourself you know better than the 80,000 other members??

Do yourself a favour and feckin do one mate 

Eh?

Where did I say or imply that I know better than the other members?

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

2 hours ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Suppose 3 is less than 4.

Yup, we're making progress, whereas Wales have progressed from the group stages yet again, in as many Euros

Edited June 25, 2021 by Bobby Russell's Lovechild

[ProudScot]

1 hour ago, Mickey The Brave said:

I think a reality check was needed for a lot of people as to the whole situation here, long before the tournament got underway.

We qualified through effectively winning Nations League C, a competition which basically found the 25th-best team in Europe. So, because of some bizarre decision from UEFA, the team who were 25th in Europe were rewarded with a place in the finals, along with Macedonia, who won a competition to find the 40th-best team in Europe. We didn’t earn our place at a 24-team finals on merit. Even then, we needed the lottery of two penalty shoot-outs to get there, so in reality, we’re still a way off actually qualifying for a major tournament on merit. As far as I’m concerned, it’s still 23-years-and-counting.

I wish some of the media and people within the squad would be more honest about this. I love James McFadden, but some of the over-hyped rubbish he’s written and spoken about our current situation is embarrassing.

The best possible analysis of our level is that we have played Israel six times in competitive matches, within the last three years. Three at home, and three away. We have a record of one win, three draws, and two defeats in those matches. Israel are ranked 85th in the world.

 

There used to be a similar number of places up for grabs for European teams in World Cup qualifying, and European Championship qualifying. That has obviously changed now. The World Cup is way beyond our reach as things stand, both in this qualifying campaign and in future qualifying campaigns. We are currently ranked as the 25th best team in Europe, and I believe there are usually around 13 European places available for World Cups. We have a lot of gradual improving to be done, before we have any sort of shot at that. The majority of places are taken up by a select group of ‘big’ teams, leaving more than 40 countries scrapping over four or five places. There are lots of consistent and decent teams who are several levels above us in the pecking order for those final few places.

Obviously, the European Championships, every four years, should now be our bread and butter, in terms of our aims. I’ve never been bothered about ‘qualification for qualification’s sake.’ I don’t care whether we qualify for one particular tournament or not. Some of our fans still draw this rigid line at ‘qualification = success, non-qualification = failure,’ in terms of how they judge a campaign, a manager, and a group of players. That hasn’t been a relevant barometer for us for over 20 years. We have to look beyond individual qualifying campaigns and the outcome of those, and look for gradual long-term progress up the pecking order. Then, as a consequence, we will find ourselves qualifying more regularly. This obsession with qualification as a goal, as opposed to general improvement, is such a short-sighted and damaging way of looking at things.

We have to give whichever manager is in charge years and years and years to build a team, a structure, a mentality, an ethos. We might not agree with the choice of manager, or their formation choices, team selections, or whatever, but our job is to support the team. We don’t need to be on message boards, phone-ins and social media, making over-the-top criticisms of them, and demanding their removal. The same goes for our treatment of the players. 

Similarly, we have to stop thinking we know better than the manager about what formations and players should be used. We don’t. It’s very easy to sit on a message board and say ‘this is the line-up we should be playing.’ The manager is the only one whose team selection actually has to go out and play the match. This isn’t FIFA or Football Manager. It isn’t as simple as so many people seem to think. You can’t magically click ‘more attacking mindset’ or change to a different formation and then suddenly the game automatically swings the way you want it to. 
 

For years and years now, we have had good midfielders. We currently have good left-backs to go with that. However, in defence, up front, and creatively, we are sorely, sorely lacking. That’s not the manager’s fault. The Scotland managers for years now have been making the best of a bad lot. We can’t succeed until decent attacking and defensive players start coming through, and giving the manager options in those positions. Cooper, Hanley and Hendry look like the best selection of centre backs we’ve had for a while now. The options at the other end of the pitch are as poor as ever though. Che Adams will be carrying a lot of responsibility for us over the next few years I think.

 

In conclusion, a total reality check, patience, respect for the manager and players, and gradual improvement are what’s needed!

Pish

[ParisInAKilt]

We rightly used to laugh at England’s expectations, well minus a few players, the vast majority of our team wouldn’t even get in the England squad. 

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Clarke is a great manager by any stretch of the imagination and he’s made multiple mistakes. 

I fluctuate between thinking we should be doing more but then remember the level our players play at. I don’t, we really lack that 1 exceptional attacking midfielder / forward and its a player we just can’t produce that can make up for a mediocre midfield and defence. 

I enjoyed the novelty of the tournament but I’ll make sure and expect the worst from now on. 

[Orraloon]

5 hours ago, Toepoke said:

We were ranked 4th in the world prior to Argentina 78...

https://www.eloratings.net/1978_start

Interesting to look down that table and see that Iran were ranked above Peru!

 

This was obviously before FIFA started doing rankings, but I have always thought that a full strength Scotland team would have been in the top 6 at that time. And, West Germany wouldn't have been one of that top 6.

Unfortunately we weren't able to deploy a full strength team once we got to Argentina.

[thesaint]

14 hours ago, dezmondo said:

Exactly. If football was simply about who had the better team on paper then there would be no point playing any matches! 

The acceptance from some fans is sickening. There are plenty of teams punching above their weight and there is nothing to stop us from doing similar with the squad of players we now have. I mean FFS, Wales knocked out Belgium 5 years ago!! 

Our expectations should be higher, we should be asking questions and we should be performing better. 

I'm certain results will not improve and we'll appoint another manager who won't be brave enough to take us forward. 

Agree.Can't stand this stupid acceptance of poor decisions by the manager .This absolute pish about us knowing our place.There have been many smaller nations with players of a lesser quality than we have that have done well in certain competitions.Wales,Northern Ireland and republic of ireland have all performed better than us and gone further in tournaments.If somebody can explain that anomaly to me,i would be delighted to hear it.It's an easy get out saying we don't have the players.Compared to those teams we certainly do.They did it,why can't we?

[Diamond Scot]

Theres a difference between having high expectations and calling for change everytime people think that the manager has made a mistake.

People are always great about saying what should or shouldnt be done but how many reflect on their own opinions. Ie how many people on here had McGreggor nowhere near the team, had McTom a certainty in midfield, called for 2 up top etc