buckielugger Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I cannot believe all the anti Corbyn posts on here. He is 100% lifelong campaigner for peace and deserves total respect for that. And thanks to Cameron's disgusting terrorist sympathisers comment, Corbyn could still hold sway in the vote. Shame on any MP in Labour and the Liberals who now marches into the lobby with Cameron . It also needs pointing out that Corbyn os leader but not a dictator...it WILL take him time to get a PLP which is more in tune with him than the current bunch. It will need changing constituency by constituency, removing the Blairites one by one. And good luck to him. (And I say that as an SNP supporter but a lifelong socialist too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilser Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Obviously Cameron sees no irony in calling individuals terrorist sympathisers for having the temerity to oppose his plans to bomb a city containing vast numbers of non combatant civilians. Why is it that bombs dropped from aeroplanes are so much more democratic, honourable and fundamentally decent than bombs let off by suicide bombers? War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Your moral indignation would be bizarre if its motivation were not so obvious. Cabinet government, and cabinet opposition, is intended to prevent a leader's dictatorship. The man is trying to re-democratize the party and he won't be able to do that with the jackboots you're so keen for him to wear. What's my "obvious motivation"? I'm not entirely sure myself. I'm just stating what I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 The general narrative there seems to be "we were conned by Blair" a classic big boy did it and ran away defence. Arguably, the Labour Party as a whole are being held to account for Iraq. Today's lot (some of them are the same people) will jut say we were conned by Cameron. I agree with your second sentence but the Labour party have to be seen to be doing something about it themselves, or they will continue to be punished at the ballot box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wibble Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Donny if you met Orrloon - you'd kiss each over tae death!. Donny - Ya Africaaans - you'd get it, ya hot bitch! (Orraloon - nae chance - ay yankie doodle!!!) EEEEEk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertsscot Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The general narrative there seems to be "we were conned by Blair" a classic big boy did it and ran away defence. Arguably, the Labour Party as a whole are being held to account for Iraq. I wouldn't let the Tories off the hook either. Can't remember too many of them voicing opposition to military action in Afhanistan, Iraq or Libya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddardStark Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I see the Americans have put 200 special forces personnel on the ground in Iraq. Part of their brief is to engage in operations in Syria in terms of targeting senior ISIS personnel. I am not in favour of the air campaign being used as the sole strategy in tackling ISIS. Cameron's words of a four point strategy to deal with ISIS are hollow and insincere. In a years time we will still be bombing but my guess is there will be at least one terrorist attack in the UK . Cameron's real reason for bombing is to maintain face with his partners and maintain our over inflated status as a world power. This is pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 Cameron's real reason for bombing is to maintain face with his partners and maintain our over inflated status as a world power. This is pathetic. and the Lib Dems and a many Labour MPs are lining up to support him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Before launching into this Cameron should have to face a raft of questions Who exactly are the groups we are bombing and not bombing? What is the exit strategy? How do we know when we've won? Are we prepared to pay for what we've broken? And some history homework: Do we know yet if we 'won' in (a) Afghanistan, (b ) Iraq, (c ) Libya? How many civilians died in (a) Afghanistan, (b ) Iraq, (c ) Libya? - in absolute numbers (nearest 1000 will do), and relative to combatants killed? Edited December 2, 2015 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The only time i'll probably ever agree with Galloway was on Sunday where he called it 100% George always seems to talk a lot of sense on Middle East politics. Or is that because most of us don't know much about Middle East politics?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 BBC are delighted Hey we have different bombs than the others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_burger Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 So we are piling in there in the interests of 'public safety' in this country. This bombing campaign will achieve absolutely hee haw. Some of the rhetoric Cameron is coming out with is so transparently manipulative that it beggars belief he will get the backing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Oh so now people who disagree with the Tories on bombing countries without their permission are a "terrorist sympathizer". Hmmm what next then maybe we should have them all locked up? Seems like being a terrorist sympathizer should be some sort of crime no? This is thinly veiled fascism. The tories are like the neocons in the US. All you are going to get is lies, deceit and endless wars not for the benefit of any ordinary people in Britain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I am starting to think Paris is just Gladio rejuvenated (if it ever died). (This running drills that exactly mirror the attacks on the same day shit seems to be an indispensable part of these operation if that is what it was.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) You can see how the terrorist bogey man label is something that can used against anyone who dissents. Some were predicting that so called conspiracy theorists would be labelled as such but to see it being used against the leader of the opposition in this way is shocking. Dave Cameron and the neocon stuffed tory cabinet are a danger to the UK. Cameron especially seems like a very nasty bit of work as does Gove who was screaming at MPs with similar invective last time they voted it down. They were so pissed as they promised others outside that they could sway the day. Like a spoiled brat Gove reacted, he could not give less of a shit about the Syrian people (yet he went mental in the lobby) all he cares about is crawling up Rupert Murdoch's ar$ehole. Why the fukk do english people vote Tory so much. Oh right the alternative choice is new labour or the lib dems. Ah well thank God we voted for independence and are out of all that now... Edited December 2, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 How many civilians died in (a) Afghanistan, (b ) Iraq, (c ) Libya? - in absolute numbers (nearest 1000 will do), and relative to combatants killed? i'm not sure anybody knows the answer to that question with any level of accuracy. The lives of those innocent people are worth so little that nobody could be bothered to count the dead bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Millions of people in refugee camps. One of our closest and dearest allies under attack. Threat to our citizens within and outside our borders. My local MP Stewart McDonald makes a speech last week advocating a "Marshall Plan" for Syria. No details on funding, leading or administering and ignoring the chaos on the ground with people getting heads chopped off and burned alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 with people getting heads chopped off and burned alive. Sorry, are you talking about the UK's ally, Saudi Arabia? The ones we sell loads of guns too. The guns which ISIS magically seem to procure? Or are you talking about somewhere else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Sorry, are you talking about the UK's ally, Saudi Arabia? The ones we sell loads of guns too. The guns which ISIS magically seem to procure? Or are you talking about somewhere else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Sorry, are you talking about the UK's ally, Saudi Arabia? The ones we sell loads of guns too. The guns which ISIS magically seem to procure? Or are you talking about somewhere else? Or our ally Turkey, who are busy fighting against the Kurds who are also our ally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacWalka Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Millions of people in refugee camps. One of our closest and dearest allies under attack. Threat to our citizens within and outside our borders. My local MP Stewart McDonald makes a speech last week advocating a "Marshall Plan" for Syria. No details on funding, leading or administering and ignoring the chaos on the ground with people getting heads chopped off and burned alive. Few points to note. In the past 10 years, one person has been killed by Islamic extremism in the UK. The was Lee Rigby and he was killed by a couple of isolated nutters who were probably "inspired" but unconnected to the various extremist organisations around the world. This indicates a couple of things - a. the security services are doing a good job or b. violent extremism isn't as widespread in the UK as is made out. I suspect the situation is a bit of both. The extremists in the UK (and the rest of Europe) are home grown. Those carrying out the 7/7 attack were from here, the Paris attackers largely appear to be from Belgium. Now, I am open to the thought that along with the thousands of refugees coming to Europe, some may be ISIS but there has been no evidence of this yet and it is only theoretical for now. Right now there are 10 countries carrying out air strikes in Syria, many of the sorties do not actually carry out attacks as there are a lack of targets identified. Air strikes rely on ground intelligence to identify targets for planes to hit. ISIS know this and take steps to reduce their chances of being identified. They hide in the general populace. The ISIS stronghold of Raqqa still has approx 200,000 civilians in the city. When travelling between locations, ISIS travel in convoys of no more than 3 vehicles and are 10km apart to make it difficult to ID and target. This will mean that there will be civilian casualties during bombing. The ground situation in Syria is very complicated. If we wipe out ISIS, who is to say that another group won't rise up in their place that are just as bad? There isn't enough information on the other factions motivations, methods, numbers to be able to make an assessment on the state of Syria Post-ISIS. Many of the anti-ISIS factions are just as bad and they fight among themselves too. The Kurds have been highlighted as the ones to hold the ground taken from ISIS but they won't go deep into Syria as they're just defending Kurdistan and on top of that I doubt the other players in the region such as Turkey, Iraq and the other anti-ISIS factions would be keen on seeing the Kurds expanding. ISIS are getting there weapons and money from somewhere (Saudi Arabia) as well as being able to sell oil somewhere (via Turkey). They are also being able to get their propaganda out there and is bolstered by previous Western bombing in Muslim countries. If the West really want to defeat ISIS then they need to stop Saudi Arabia and other backers from funding and arming them. Many in ISIS are local mercenaries, if the money runs out, they'll go elsewhere. We also need to stop feeding them propaganda material, they want Western interference, they want air strikes, they want boots on the ground as this gives them their holy war and civilian casualties that helps them recruit. Bombing Syria will result in the following: ISIS personnel being killed Civilians being killed Relatives of killed civilians joining Islamic Extremists Increased propaganda for Islamic Extremist groups Disenfranchised Muslims throughout the world being attracted to Extremist groups In-fighting between anti-ISIS factions in the power vacuum Probably another group rising up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 A powerful speech J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitre Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Despite not agreeing with Eck on all his views, he is spot on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) At what point do you stop believing the government is actually trying to bring peace to the Middle East? Edited December 2, 2015 by ParisInAKilt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Or our ally Turkey, who are busy fighting against the Kurds who are also our ally. I once tried to research and understand the UK - Middle East relations. Half an hour later I was sobbing naked in the corner of the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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