DonnyTJS Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 It's not Corbyn, per-se. It's hatred of a Labour Party who stood side-by-side with the Tories, belittling Scotland at every available opportunity. Which would be the same Labour Party that Corbyn is trying to change radically. The main explanation, as far as I can see, is that some see a successful radicalization of Labour as a threat to independence. That won't be the case; the political landscape in Scotland has changed beyond that now. Nothing that those against independence can do will win a future referendum; their only hope is that Yes manage to lose it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) There's no real equivalence there. The SNP had long ago settled its internal factionalism, though it took years. Corbyn's election is the beginning of a long road, and attempting to whip recalcitrant members of the PLP on this would have likely led to it all imploding with a swathe of shadow cabinet resignations and all the media shitstorm that follows. Either way Syria likely gets bombed. In a lose-lose situation it makes sense to look at longer term. As for Salmond's principles, he vacillated on the currency issue, flipping from post-independence adoption of the Euro to whatever unformed sterling-sharing pipedream was being posited by the end. A strong, principled stance on an independent currency might well have made no difference to the result, but it would have been a stronger position to defend at the time and provided a firm base from which to build a position for next time around. Corbyn is dealing with a PLP largely formed of those who were seduced into New Labour during the Blair and Brown years. He has to allow the new membership to change the profile of the parliamentary party and it will take time. Falling on his sword now would have rendered it impossible. The Corbyn hate-fest indulged in by some on here mirrors that of the MSM that the same folk are the first to attack. It's weird. Yes there is. Cave-in Corbyn has no chance. I'll be stunned if he is anywhere near the job in a year from now. Total pish on the currency. If Salmond had done that it would have been Salmond's Punt with a picture of his fat face on it in a mocked up stupid note etc etc on and on. It helps a lot when the state broadcaster and all the media are lined up against you but yeah let's pretend it was lost on the currency and not on all the other disgraceful shite that was flying about in vast quantities. Corbyn hate? Hmmm we must be reading different message boards. After the endless anti snp stuff on here from our resident socialist I think you are just seeing some much overdue mirth at Captain Cave-in and his latest fukk-up. Edited December 1, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Yes there is. Cave-in Corbyn has no chance. I'll be stunned if he is anywhere near the job in a year from now. Total pish on the currency. If Salmond had done that it would have been Salmond's Punt with a picture of his fat face on it in a mocked up stupid note etc etc on and on. It helps a lot when the state broadcaster and all the media are lined up against you but yeah let's pretend it was lost on the currency and not on all the other disgraceful shite that was flying about in vast quantities. Corbyn hate? Hmmm we must be reading different message boards. After the endless anti snp stuff on here from our resident socialist I think you are just seeing some much overdue mirth at Captain Cave-in and his latest fukk-up. You need to watch your BP Plinthy, I worry about you. I do see your point about Salmond and his principles, I'm not sure lauding a man who will lie, and deceive to achieve his goals is wise. But each to thy own comrade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giblet Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Surprised Corbyn isnt insisting of having a review, thats been his answer so far to every decision he has been asked to make. As for Salmond, when it comes to principals on foreign intervention, cant think of another politician who has maintained his viewpoint from Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria. Then again, I only think that as he is the "dear Leader". Corbyn has let Cameron trap him into a corner. More challenge on "what happens next" should have been made. If Labour voted en masse against the war now, they would have taken a hiding in the right wing media and in turn lose that political centre of the population that they need to be ever elected. For all the dressing up of Corbyn's leftist views, the Labour party cannot ever be in power unless it follows a centrist strategy. Another indyref prediction coming true however. We will be dragged into a war we do not support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Surprised Corbyn isnt insisting of having a review, thats been his answer so far to every decision he has been asked to make. As for Salmond, when it comes to principals on foreign intervention, cant think of another politician who has maintained his viewpoint from Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria. Then again, I only think that as he is the "dear Leader". I'm only going from memory, but didn't the SNP support bombing Afghanistan and Libya? I'm 99% sure on Libya... Couldn't say for certain on Afghanistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Labour lied and millions died. Always good to have our memories refreshed about who stood where when the lies were thick and deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 The Peoples champion along with 138 other Labour MP's defied Leadership and voted against the Iraq war. One of those rebels is now in leadership of the biggest political party on these isles. It's a fantastic time to be alive Plinthy. Embrace it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 There's no real equivalence there. The SNP had long ago settled its internal factionalism, though it took years. Corbyn's election is the beginning of a long road, and attempting to whip recalcitrant members of the PLP on this would have likely led to it all imploding with a swathe of shadow cabinet resignations and all the media shitstorm that follows. Either way Syria likely gets bombed. In a lose-lose situation it makes sense to look at longer term. As for Salmond's principles, he vacillated on the currency issue, flipping from post-independence adoption of the Euro to whatever unformed sterling-sharing pipedream was being posited by the end. A strong, principled stance on an independent currency might well have made no difference to the result, but it would have been a stronger position to defend at the time and provided a firm base from which to build a position for next time around. Corbyn is dealing with a PLP largely formed of those who were seduced into New Labour during the Blair and Brown years. He has to allow the new membership to change the profile of the parliamentary party and it will take time. Falling on his sword now would have rendered it impossible. The Corbyn hate-fest indulged in by some on here mirrors that of the MSM that the same folk are the first to attack. It's weird. Excellent post Donny. I disagree that a re-democratised and socialist Labour party are forever done and dusted in Scotland, it's just a very long way back. Some of the commentary on here is, as you said, borne of a recognition of the threat this poses to the SNP and some future possibility of independence. The focus on whether Jeremy Corbyn gave the PLP a free vote or not is a complete side show and part of the MSM agenda to discredit him. Whipping was lose lose, as already pointed out, and the narative drive of the MSM was trying to influence that decision to create a massive stick to beat him with. A free vote allows party members to really suss out who's who without losing all credibility or fracturing the PLP to a point where it becomes completely impotent in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Stumbled on this... old school. Quite enjoyable watching. The Peoples champion along with 138 other Labour MP's defied Leadership and voted against the Iraq war. One of those rebels is now in leadership of the biggest political party on these isles. It's a fantastic time to be alive Plinthy. Embrace it List of shame here... Is that Tom Watson on it? Angela Eagle? Hilary Benn? That is 3 out the first 4 that I checked from Cave-in's cabinet who voted yes for the Iraq war (crime). http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_MPs_who_voted_for_Iraq_War#Others_.2814.29 244 in favour...oooft that is a lot. The list of UK MPs who voted for the Iraq War refers to Members of Parliament in the United Kingdom House of Commons who voted in favour of Tony Blair's New Labour regime motion for participating in the Iraq War. The vote took place on the 18 March 2003 and it couched its position as authorising "all means necessary for disarming Saddam Hussein." Across all members, it passed by a majority of 263, with 421 in favour and 263 against. All Liberal Democrats voted against the war; 244 Labour Party members voted in favour (and tabled the motion), as did 139 Conservative Party members.[1] But in good news Parties who opposed the Iraq War British National Party National Front Liberal Democrats UK Independence Party Plaid Cymru Scottish National Party Social Democratic and Labour Party Provisional Sinn Féin Edited December 1, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I can see Corbyn's predicament: even if he managed to whip all his MPs would there be enough Tory rebels to defeat the motion? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 It's a fantastic time to be alive Plinthy. Embrace it Enjoy it. Although I do fear for you both. It is like watching two lambs gamboling and frolicking unaware that they are surrounded by slavering lions. It is a question of when not if and it is going to be ugly and brutal. They will run him ragged I reckon. I have been watching gory vids on liveleak just to desensitive myself to the bloodbath when it finally arrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Enjoy it. Although I do fear for you both. It is like watching two lambs gamboling and frolicking unaware that they are surrounded by slavering lions. It is a question of when not if and it is going to be ugly and brutal. They will run him ragged I reckon. I have been watching gory vids on liveleak just to desensitive myself to the bloodbath when it finally arrives. Ach I don't consider you to be a Lion at all Plinthy. I love you quite dearly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Hmmm back on topic. This is lunacy from Cameron. The Russian's recently (post shoot down) deployed their S400 air defense system in Syria and parked an air defense missile cruiser off the coast. These are very competent bits of kit I read. So is Eton Dave seriously thinking of just going into that airspace uninvited by the Syrians and bombing what he wants? Who trusts him not to be attacking Assad on the sly? So now we have another nations planes in that already very dangerous airspace...brilliant Dave just brilliant. What a nob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Putin is being outflanked by 'Nato' here, for want of a better term. Flying sorties through this airspace effectively renders his high tech gadgetry ineffective. He cannot afford for his forces to take down an 'allied' aircraft for fear of it being seen as retribution against Turkey/Nato - 'only a madman would attack NATO'. There is nothing to suggest the UKUS axis of mayhem have changed their minds on ousting Assad. Edited December 1, 2015 by Mash it up Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Can any of you well informed folk tell me why Corbyn had to decide anything at this point? Why didn't he just wait to see if Cameron had the baws to have a vote, before he told anybody what his decision was? If he had just waited, Corbyn might never have needed to make his decision known. Edited December 1, 2015 by Orraloon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Can any of you well informed folk tell me why Corbyn had to decide anything at this point? Why didn't he just wait to see if Cameron had the baws to have a vote, before he told anybody what his decision was? If he had just waited, Corbyn might never have needed to make his decision known. Votes tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Votes tomorrow. He didn't know that yesterday though. The vote is only happening tomorrow because Corbyn told Cameron what he was going to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Funny they have been brought to the fore recently in the argument for bombing - never heard of them before. They can take a man out in a car, you know. Aside from that, the sight of the Bitter Together 2nd team making a James Hunt of absolutely everything is a sight to behold. They've got bombs that can drive cars now? That would be one scary taxi ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) They've got bombs that can drive cars now? That would be one scary taxi ride. Taxi for Call Me Dave... Edited December 1, 2015 by Mash it up Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Cave in Corbyn is a classic and im stealing it Well played Just when you think you cannot despise Labour and their supporters anymore ........ Absolute useless good for all imposters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Heard an inspirational interview from Corbyn on the way home there. What a time to be alive! Impossible not to be positive about the future! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Heard an inspirational interview from Corbyn on the way home there. What a time to be alive! Impossible not to be positive about the future! Drink driving is poor form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Heard an inspirational interview from Corbyn on the way home there. What a time to be alive! Impossible not to be positive about the future! Give it just over 24 hours and we'll be going to bomb Syria - very positive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Give it just over 24 hours and we'll be going to bomb Syria - very positive Rule Britannia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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