aaid Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Who are we thinking hasn't paid the tax? My understanding is that every individual is responsible for their own tax in the UK whether employed or self employed. Therefore Rangers haven't received a competitive advantage at all, it's all down to the individual players diddling the tax man. There is no way that in, for example, the building industry, that a company would be slated for one of their contractors/sub-contractors not paying their tax. I think the difference is that footballers are employees on fixed term contracts and should be subject to PAYE, rather than subcontractors who are responsible for their own tax arrangements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus_Young Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Alex Thomson... http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-winning-titles-cheating-taxman/10032 Playing devils advocate again. Would 'seem to' call it into question. Do you think it actually will be called into question? Im not so sure as I think it will be impossible to gauge how much of an advantage was gained by using them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce778 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Likes of Barry Ferguson and Bob malcolm would've undoubtedly played for Rangers regardless. Ronald de Boer and Tore Andre flo? Let's be honest, they were here for the money. And john spencer and Andy Goram were at Motherwell for the quality of life...Every footballer goes to a club for money. It's their job. It could be argued that the clubs subject to "conventional" insolvency events were more culpable than rangers because they knew they couldn't afford what they were paying. Rangers, foolishly in my opinion, thought what they were doing was fine (they did it for 9 years without hmrc saying anything about it apparently) but then got stung with a massive back tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgowmancity Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I think the difference is that footballers are employees on fixed term contracts and should be subject to PAYE, rather than subcontractors who are responsible for their own tax arrangements. Yeah, but it's still the individuals responsibility to ensure they have paid the correct amount of tax - not the company they "only" collect it - That's the HMRC standpoint. However, Rangers would be liable for the employers NI on the additional payments (I assume they never paid that) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus_Young Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 And john spencer and Andy Goram were at Motherwell for the quality of life... Every footballer goes to a club for money. It's their job. It could be argued that the clubs subject to "conventional" insolvency events were more culpable than rangers because they knew they couldn't afford what they were paying. Rangers, foolishly in my opinion, thought what they were doing was fine (they did it for 9 years without hmrc saying anything about it apparently) but then got stung with a massive back tax. I'm not convinced mate. Knowing what we do about David Murray I'm quite sure he knew it wasn't 'fine'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce778 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Playing devils advocate again. Would 'seem to' call it into question. Do you think it actually will be called into question? Im not so sure as I think it will be impossible to gauge how much of an advantage was gained by using them. It doesn't call it into question at all. That decision related to whether or not rangers' non-declaration of the side letters as part of the contractual arrangement with players was not declared to the SFA. The decision said it didn't make a difference because even if rangers had declared them, the SFA woukd not have questioned them so long as hmrc had no issue with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce778 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I'm not convinced mate. Knowing what we do about David Murray I'm quite sure he knew it wasn't 'fine'.I agree. I think the decision to use the scheme was irresponsible and reckless. There is a lot to be said for the approach adopted by the judges of the court of session when they refer to the common sense (or lack thereof) of the whole arrangement. However, it's indisputable that rangers operated this scheme for almost a decade without any action by hmrc. I suppose rangers could be forgiven for assuming that hmrc didn't take issue with it after it had been operating for a few years without any adverse response by hmrc. Without checking, I would assume that is reflected in the extent to which rangers used EBTs, ie once they weren't challenged they were probably assumed to be fine and used more frequently. Conversely, you had teams like Dundee, Motherwell and hearts paying ludicrous wages which they knew they could never afford - tax or no tax. Arguably, that is more irresponsible than rangers who thought they were operating a lawful scheme but years later get hit with a back tax bill that has to go to the court of session before they are found liable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamntg Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Playing devils advocate again. Would 'seem to' call it into question. Do you think it actually will be called into question? Im not so sure as I think it will be impossible to gauge how much of an advantage was gained by using them. Well, you would get kicked out of the Scottish Cup for playing an unregistered player for one minute in a cup tie, whether it accrued an advantage or not. Wasn't the crux of the original complaint that the club had been making undisclosed payments to players, thereby making their registration invalid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce778 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Alex Thomson... http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-winning-titles-cheating-taxman/10032 Alex Thomson clearly hasn't read the judgment of the court of session. If he had read it, he would realise the reason hmrc failed before the previous tribunals. That is because hmrc raised a new ground before the court of session that had not been raised before the tribunals. This was the ground that hmrc got up on. They failed on the other grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donaldo87 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 If anything Motherwell and the like spending lavish wages on Benito Kemble et al are the reason that Rangers had to spend even more money and look at dodgy tax measures to keep their advantage. They are the real bad guys here. Rangers are just victims in all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giblet Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Kevin Muscat got a £1 million EBT. Kevin Muscat, yes, Kevin Muscat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giblet Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Alan Hutton £364,000 Alex Rae £569,000 Andrei Kanchelskis £145,000 Arthur Numan £510,000 Barry Ferguson £2.5million Bert Konterman £300,000 Billy Dodds £190,000 Bob Malcolm £125,000 Carlos Cuellar £448,255 Chris Burke £55,000 Christian Nerlinger £1.8million Claudio Caniggia £1million Craig Moore £1.1million Dado Prso £1.9million Egil Ostenstad £370,000 Fernando Ricksen £684,225 Federico Nieto £24,500 Gavin Rae £376,000 Gregory Vignal £173,000 Ian Murray £95,000 Jean-Alain Boumsong £630,000 Jerome Bonnissel £48,000 Jesper Christiansen £320,000 Julien Rodriguez £638,000 Kevin Muscat £1million Kris Boyd £215,000 Libor Sionko £178,000 Lorenzo Amoruso £639,000 Marvin Andrews £316,025 Maurice Ross £120,000 Michael Ball £1.4million Michael Mols £260,000 Mikel Arteta £674,603 Nacho Novo £1.2million Neil McCann £500,000 Nuno Capucho £970,000 Olivier Bernard £224,000 Paolo Vanoli £592,000 Tore Andre Flo £1.3m Pedro Mendes £1million Peter Lovenkrands £902,000 Ronald De Boer £1.2million Ronald Waterreus £510,000 Sasa Papac £319,000 Sotirios Kyrgiakos £532,200 Stefan Klos £2million Steven Davis £600,000 Steven Smith £7500 Steven Thompson £485,000 Tero Penttila £140,000 Thomas Buffel £1.2million Zurab Khizanishvili £405,000 Shota Arveladze: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Russell Latapy: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Brahim Hemdani: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stocky Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Alan Hutton £364,000 Alex Rae £569,000 Andrei Kanchelskis £145,000 Arthur Numan £510,000 Barry Ferguson £2.5million Bert Konterman £300,000 Billy Dodds £190,000 Bob Malcolm £125,000 Carlos Cuellar £448,255 Chris Burke £55,000 Christian Nerlinger £1.8million Claudio Caniggia £1million Craig Moore £1.1million Dado Prso £1.9million Egil Ostenstad £370,000 Fernando Ricksen £684,225 Federico Nieto £24,500 Gavin Rae £376,000 Gregory Vignal £173,000 Ian Murray £95,000 Jean-Alain Boumsong £630,000 Jerome Bonnissel £48,000 Jesper Christiansen £320,000 Julien Rodriguez £638,000 Kevin Muscat £1million Kris Boyd £215,000 Libor Sionko £178,000 Lorenzo Amoruso £639,000 Marvin Andrews £316,025 Maurice Ross £120,000 Michael Ball £1.4million Michael Mols £260,000 Mikel Arteta £674,603 Nacho Novo £1.2million Neil McCann £500,000 Nuno Capucho £970,000 Olivier Bernard £224,000 Paolo Vanoli £592,000 Tore Andre Flo £1.3m Pedro Mendes £1million Peter Lovenkrands £902,000 Ronald De Boer £1.2million Ronald Waterreus £510,000 Sasa Papac £319,000 Sotirios Kyrgiakos £532,200 Stefan Klos £2million Steven Davis £600,000 Steven Smith £7500 Steven Thompson £485,000 Tero Penttila £140,000 Thomas Buffel £1.2million Zurab Khizanishvili £405,000 Shota Arveladze: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Russell Latapy: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Brahim Hemdani: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got i havent heard of half these guys......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekfaejapan Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Just seen this on FB Quote Hector is a taxmanhe wears the magic hat the huns said we are innocent Hector said that your 15 years of cheating your titles are now mine your not on 54 ya s your down to 39 Quite funny, but when did Rangers win 15 in a row, I must have missed that You can tell it was a Tim who wrote that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Alan Hutton £364,000 Alex Rae £569,000 Andrei Kanchelskis £145,000 Arthur Numan £510,000 Barry Ferguson £2.5million Bert Konterman £300,000 Billy Dodds £190,000 Bob Malcolm £125,000 Carlos Cuellar £448,255 Chris Burke £55,000 Christian Nerlinger £1.8million Claudio Caniggia £1million Craig Moore £1.1million Dado Prso £1.9million Egil Ostenstad £370,000 Fernando Ricksen £684,225 Federico Nieto £24,500 Gavin Rae £376,000 Gregory Vignal £173,000 Ian Murray £95,000 Jean-Alain Boumsong £630,000 Jerome Bonnissel £48,000 Jesper Christiansen £320,000 Julien Rodriguez £638,000 Kevin Muscat £1million Kris Boyd £215,000 Libor Sionko £178,000 Lorenzo Amoruso £639,000 Marvin Andrews £316,025 Maurice Ross £120,000 Michael Ball £1.4million Michael Mols £260,000 Mikel Arteta £674,603 Nacho Novo £1.2million Neil McCann £500,000 Nuno Capucho £970,000 Olivier Bernard £224,000 Paolo Vanoli £592,000 Tore Andre Flo £1.3m Pedro Mendes £1million Peter Lovenkrands £902,000 Ronald De Boer £1.2million Ronald Waterreus £510,000 Sasa Papac £319,000 Sotirios Kyrgiakos £532,200 Stefan Klos £2million Steven Davis £600,000 Steven Smith £7500 Steven Thompson £485,000 Tero Penttila £140,000 Thomas Buffel £1.2million Zurab Khizanishvili £405,000 Shota Arveladze: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Russell Latapy: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Brahim Hemdani: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got When you read that list there as more players who were a handicap then an advantage, if anything we should be getting points added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggycoo Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Alan Hutton £364,000 Alex Rae £569,000 Andrei Kanchelskis £145,000 Arthur Numan £510,000 Barry Ferguson £2.5million Bert Konterman £300,000 Billy Dodds £190,000 Bob Malcolm £125,000 Carlos Cuellar £448,255 Chris Burke £55,000 Christian Nerlinger £1.8million Claudio Caniggia £1million Craig Moore £1.1million Dado Prso £1.9million Egil Ostenstad £370,000 Fernando Ricksen £684,225 Federico Nieto £24,500 Gavin Rae £376,000 Gregory Vignal £173,000 Ian Murray £95,000 Jean-Alain Boumsong £630,000 Jerome Bonnissel £48,000 Jesper Christiansen £320,000 Julien Rodriguez £638,000 Kevin Muscat £1million Kris Boyd £215,000 Libor Sionko £178,000 Lorenzo Amoruso £639,000 Marvin Andrews £316,025 Maurice Ross £120,000 Michael Ball £1.4million Michael Mols £260,000 Mikel Arteta £674,603 Nacho Novo £1.2million Neil McCann £500,000 Nuno Capucho £970,000 Olivier Bernard £224,000 Paolo Vanoli £592,000 Tore Andre Flo £1.3m Pedro Mendes £1million Peter Lovenkrands £902,000 Ronald De Boer £1.2million Ronald Waterreus £510,000 Sasa Papac £319,000 Sotirios Kyrgiakos £532,200 Stefan Klos £2million Steven Davis £600,000 Steven Smith £7500 Steven Thompson £485,000 Tero Penttila £140,000 Thomas Buffel £1.2million Zurab Khizanishvili £405,000 Shota Arveladze: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Russell Latapy: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Brahim Hemdani: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got As been said many times, wee Barry would of played for Rangers without the need for the EBT, but clearly had the right people behind him as he sailed off with more than anyone else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glasgow jock Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 When you read that list there as more players who were a handicap then an advantage, if anything we should be getting points added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandydunn Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) When you read that list there as more players who were a handicap then an advantage, if anything we should be getting points added. True,there was some money thrown away to shite nobody's. But to be fair,if you looked at a substantial list of any club in Scotland for the last 10/15 years,you would just think,wow,who's idea was it to sign that clown. Edited November 5, 2015 by dandydunn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 As been said many times, wee Barry would of played for Rangers without the need for the EBT, but clearly had the right people behind him as he sailed off with more than anyone else To be fair he was there a lot longer than anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyDenoon Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 With all the dodgy EBT and tax related shenanigans going on at Rangers, the biggest question of the lot is surely how the was Harry Redknapp never the manager at any point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalgety Bay TA Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Thats £33m+ right there. And that was on top of their normal salaries? Nuno Capucho got £970k and was there for about half a year. Still he helped beat Ra Tims in the UEFA Cup final so I am sure the Rangers fans don't begrudge him his £1m tax free bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoonTheSlope Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 So EBT'sy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macy37 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Alan Hutton £364,000 Alex Rae £569,000 Andrei Kanchelskis £145,000 Arthur Numan £510,000 Barry Ferguson £2.5million Bert Konterman £300,000 Billy Dodds £190,000 Bob Malcolm £125,000 Carlos Cuellar £448,255 Chris Burke £55,000 Christian Nerlinger £1.8million Claudio Caniggia £1million Craig Moore £1.1million Dado Prso £1.9million Egil Ostenstad £370,000 Fernando Ricksen £684,225 Federico Nieto £24,500 Gavin Rae £376,000 Gregory Vignal £173,000 Ian Murray £95,000 Jean-Alain Boumsong £630,000 Jerome Bonnissel £48,000 Jesper Christiansen £320,000 Julien Rodriguez £638,000 Kevin Muscat £1million Kris Boyd £215,000 Libor Sionko £178,000 Lorenzo Amoruso £639,000 Marvin Andrews £316,025 Maurice Ross £120,000 Michael Ball £1.4million Michael Mols £260,000 Mikel Arteta £674,603 Nacho Novo £1.2million Neil McCann £500,000 Nuno Capucho £970,000 Olivier Bernard £224,000 Paolo Vanoli £592,000 Tore Andre Flo £1.3m Pedro Mendes £1million Peter Lovenkrands £902,000 Ronald De Boer £1.2million Ronald Waterreus £510,000 Sasa Papac £319,000 Sotirios Kyrgiakos £532,200 Stefan Klos £2million Steven Davis £600,000 Steven Smith £7500 Steven Thompson £485,000 Tero Penttila £140,000 Thomas Buffel £1.2million Zurab Khizanishvili £405,000 Shota Arveladze: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Russell Latapy: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got Brahim Hemdani: Had side letter but unclear what extra money he got I had to google a few. Buffel really played that many games?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Gas Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Nuno Capucho won an EBT in Seville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Gas Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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