Shootiing At French Magazine In Paris

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

Think he has been watching to many westerns aff his head with that post given the the amount of people murdered this is for real laddy no some daft cowboy film show a bit of respect your post is no funny

think you are missing the point , i was replying to an earlier post that had said something like ' fair play to the lads went out in a hail of bullets' which i'd assumed to be the 2 terrorists killed as opposed to the police or civilians killed

go back and check it before you launch into misinformed patronizing crap

[Bristolhibby]

Nonsense, if you were to abide by what is strictly written in the Quran we would be seeing much worse than some of the terrible things that have been actually happening right now.

Don't know about the Koran as I've never read it. But in most religions it is the good way in which you live your life (as Christ/Mohamed or any otherworldly do) that are the key teachings.

This smite/lay my vengeance/ wrath is mine, is just a perverse twist and a terrible interpretation made by evil people with an agenda.

And I don't limit this twisting of holy teachings to Muslims. Christians and Jews are just as guilty of taking religion and preaching hate.

J

[Hertsscot]

Wherever this thread is going its a reminder that Islam is not monolithic, so let's not blame the whole religion. There have been horrific things done in the name of all sorts of ideologies religious and secular.

[Freeedom]

Don't know about the Koran as I've never read it. But in most religions it is the good way in which you live your life (as Christ/Mohamed or any otherworldly do) that are the key teachings.

This smite/lay my vengeance/ wrath is mine, is just a perverse twist and a terrible interpretation made by evil people with an agenda.

And I don't limit this twisting of holy teachings to Muslims. Christians and Jews are just as guilty of taking religion and preaching hate.

J

They are not the key teachings, they are the parts you and a lot of religious people like to cherry pick from the holy books, particularly Christians. In the western world which is mostly dominated by Christians we have come to realise that a lot of what is written and taught in the bible is barbaric so we choose to ignore those parts that we no longer like.

Those that talk and believe in smiting and vengeance are generally beliefs taken straight from the religious text from which they model their lives on. Most people ignore those parts because they are clearly evil but some people, particularly those of the Islamic faith in the middle east are just following their religion with strict regard to what is written in the Quran. They haven't moved on the same way society has in the west and that is why we see them as extremists despite just following what it is the Quran is telling them to do. These are people so blinded by their faith that they believe executing innocent people is what their God would want them to do, it is only through religion that we see generally sane people commit horrific crimes and it must stop. Islam is a plague and we have allowed some of the negative aspects of that culture to infiltrate in to our society such as forced marriages and intolerance of the freedom of expression for women. We need to stop pretending that "it is only a few" and start facing up to the fact there is no place for any sort of backwards ideology in a modern society. Why not just forget religion altogether and apply common sense to what we know is right and wrong instead of cherry picking the bits and pieces from religion that we like and don't like ?

Atrocities are committed in the name of Islam all the time, there is no worse offender in the world today and we need to stop tippy toeing around it because it's indoctrination leads to potentially good people doing terrible terrible things.

[phart]

Totally agree however Islam has been doing a great job of demonizing itself too

The problem is trying to throw a conceptual blanket over hundreds of millions. It just doesn't fit.

Religion is as religion does. So it's millions of different things. Look at how the Anelka situation was dealt with here and in France, when he made the gesture. Or the French Artist who was censored for it.

Now it's all about freedom of expression...

does not compute.

[phart]

Certainty is the problem not the mechanism which gives you certainty.

Certain you're in the right so it's ok to kill people.

Certain there is no after-life so culling millions will have no judgement after.

Certain you're working gods work so ends justify the means

Confusing symptoms for the disease and being certain you've identified the problem allows you to justify saying things you wouldn't if you were doubtful.

[fringo]

[phart]

I see the suspect has now reportedly escaped to SYRIA.

and Fringo that poster is spot on.

[Bristolhibby]

They are not the key teachings, they are the parts you and a lot of religious people like to cherry pick from the holy books, particularly Christians. In the western world which is mostly dominated by Christians we have come to realise that a lot of what is written and taught in the bible is barbaric so we choose to ignore those parts that we no longer like.

Those that talk and believe in smiting and vengeance are generally beliefs taken straight from the religious text from which they model their lives on. Most people ignore those parts because they are clearly evil but some people, particularly those of the Islamic faith in the middle east are just following their religion with strict regard to what is written in the Quran. They haven't moved on the same way society has in the west and that is why we see them as extremists despite just following what it is the Quran is telling them to do. These are people so blinded by their faith that they believe executing innocent people is what their God would want them to do, it is only through religion that we see generally sane people commit horrific crimes and it must stop. Islam is a plague and we have allowed some of the negative aspects of that culture to infiltrate in to our society such as forced marriages and intolerance of the freedom of expression for women. We need to stop pretending that "it is only a few" and start facing up to the fact there is no place for any sort of backwards ideology in a modern society. Why not just forget religion altogether and apply common sense to what we know is right and wrong instead of cherry picking the bits and pieces from religion that we like and don't like ?

Atrocities are committed in the name of Islam all the time, there is no worse offender in the world today and we need to stop tippy toeing around it because it's indoctrination leads to potentially good people doing terrible terrible things.

I simply don't believe that Islam is evil, and that it is an evil religion.

All religion is ####ed up, ultimately by people's own interpretations.

I agree with your common sense approach though. As Bill and Ted said "Be excellent to each other".

J

[Freeedom]

I simply don't believe that Islam is evil, and that it is an evil religion.

All religion is ####ed up, ultimately by people's own interpretations.

I agree with your common sense approach though. As Bill and Ted said "Be excellent to each other".

J

Which part about the punishment for apostasy being death is not evil ? Nothing to do with interpretation, it's in the Quran

[phart]

What's that? A Book written 1400 years ago has some barbaric content you say...

Christianity

the bible has death for Apostasy too, Hell Jesus says "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"

Judiasm

"do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

So all 3 abrahamic creation myths and subsequent doctrine have death as the punishment for apostasy.

Islam

TheQuran doesn't actually specify a punishment for Apostasy as claimed, it's actually the Hadiths that specify death not their rule-book or whatver the feck they call it.

Source: Campo, Juan Eduardo (2009). Encyclopedia of Islam. Infobase Publishing. pp. 48, 174 "Quran reprimands apostasy in Islam and suggests it deserves Chastisement . However, Quran does not reveal a specific punishment for apostasy."

Let's not let the facts get in the way of good old fashioned hysteria though.

Edited January 11, 2015 by phart

[Freeedom]

What's that? A Book written 1400 years ago has some barbaric content you say...

Christianity

the bible has death for Apostasy too, Hell Jesus says "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"

Judiasm

"do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

So all 3 abrahamic creation myths and subsequent doctrine have death as the punishment for apostasy.

Islam

TheQuran doesn't actually specify a punishment for Apostasy as claimed, it's actually the Hadiths that specify death not their rule-book or whatver the feck they call it.

Source: Campo, Juan Eduardo (2009). Encyclopedia of Islam. Infobase Publishing. pp. 48, 174 "Quran reprimands apostasy in Islam and suggests it deserves Chastisement . However, Quran does not reveal a specific punishment for apostasy."

Let's not let the facts get in the way of good old fashioned hysteria though.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

anyway...

[phart]

Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

anyway...

that quote doesn't appear in the link to the text.

also the context doesn't imply apostates

My understanding comes from peer-reviewed books by scholars, i'll need more than an unattributed translation copy and pasted onto a message board as a single line with no context to start shifting views.

So Islam which has no clear punishment for apostasy while the other 2 have clear "evil" messages and that's the evil one.... anyway...

Edited January 11, 2015 by phart

[Freeedom]

that quote doesn't appear in the link to the text.

also the context doesn't imply apostates

My understanding comes from peer-reviewed books by scholars, i'll need more than an unattributed translation copy and pasted onto a message board as a single line with no context to start shifting views.

So Islam which has no clear punishment for apostasy while the other 2 have clear "evil" messages and that's the evil one.... anyway...

I'm not here to defend any religion, I thought that was obvious but the quote seems clear enough to me. It is just one example of many from the Quran that most of modern society would consider to be barbaric. If you want to get pendantic about minutae go and find someone else to argue with because i'm not interested.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/89/

[phart]

4:88-91 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they forsake the domain of evil in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then God hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them

Turns out this is an oft-quoted verse that is either maliciously or stupidily mis0interpeted. Why quote it out of context? It's nothing to do with apostasy and everything to do with the contemporary attacks on Madinah by the non muslim makkah

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/quran_489_commentary

[Bristolhibby]

Which part about the punishment for apostasy being death is not evil ? Nothing to do with interpretation, it's in the Quran

Pretty sure I can stone somebody to death if they covet my cow.

As has been mentioned these text were written almost 2,000 years ago. I'm sure the writers wanted to ensure their brand of religion was adhered to, so they threatened people. Eternal damnation, etc. they also wanted to control the population (so write in some rules), then make sure everyone believes your partucular brand of God, therefore ask your followers to kill non believers, etc.

1,400 years ago it was perfectly OK to kill on religious grounds.

Like I said earlier, love each other and have compassion for fellow humans. You don't need a book for this to be a good thing. I'd also hazard a guess that most people would want to be like this.

J

[Ally Bongo]

I think a lot of it is down to ignorance and education.

Less than 300 years ago individuals were being burned alive for heresy in the West

Less than 100 years ago you were still being sent to prison for blasphemy in the UK

Less than 40 years ago there was still uproar from many people over The Life of Brian

Now we have shows like Family Guy poking fun at all faiths but mainly Christianity not to mention Atheist views selling millions of books.

Christianity and the West has moved on which cannot be said about Islam and the Middle East

[phart]

I'm not here to defend any religion, I thought that was obvious but the quote seems clear enough to me. It is just one example of many from the Quran that most of modern society would consider to be barbaric. If you want to get pendantic about minutae go and find someone else to argue with because i'm not interested.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/89/

Why do modern islamic scholars state that there is no stated punishment in the quran for Apostasy? What is it you've managed to discover that they cannot? Can you even read the Quran in it's original language like they can?

[phart]

I'm not here to defend any religion, I thought that was obvious but the quote seems clear enough to me. It is just one example of many from the Quran that most of modern society would consider to be barbaric. If you want to get pendantic about minutae go and find someone else to argue with because i'm not interested.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/89/

Why use poorly formatted websites? We can use peer-reviewed encyclopedias authored not by anonymous people but people who work in institutions that have quality control mechanism in place.

It is worrisome to see someone training to be a scientist abandon the scientific method and place a web page above the Encyclopedia of Islam which Yale university states is:

"The most important, authoritative reference work in English on Islam and Islamic subjects. Includes long, signed articles, with bibliographies. Special emphasis is given in this (EI2) edition to economic and social topics, but it remains the standard encyclopedic reference on the Islamic religion in English."

Which Stephen Humphrey's (Princetown professor of islamic history) calls "The most important and comprehensive reference tool for Islamic studies is the Encyclopaedia of Islam, an immense effort to deal with every aspect of Islamic civilization, conceived in the widest sense, from its origins down to the present day... EI is no anonymous digest of received wisdom. Most of the articles are signed, and while some are hardly more than dictionary entries, others are true research pieces – in many cases the best available treatment of their subject".

You've stopped thinking critically i won't bother speculating the reasons why. Talk about blinded by faith ... yeah

Edited January 11, 2015 by phart

[phart]

Incidentally i'm in the middle of reading D J Taylors biography of Orwell, and Orwell talks about how the rise of aetheism and by effect the fall in the belief of an accounting of ones actions at the end of ones life, had all sorts of sane people doing terrible things. In fact that belief is one of the biggest themes of his writing. Taylor mentions it as one of his main themes over decades of writing.

It's not the sole province of religion to "it is only through religion that we see generally sane people commit horrific crimes and it must stop"

Your information and axioms are demonstrably false, hence why you have come to a false conclusion.

Edited January 11, 2015 by phart

[Scotty CTA]

We non-christians don't. We just think it's all pish and laugh.

And you have that freedom.

Aaaw,that's a lovely interpretation.So he is basically just saying to his mates 'raise a glass to me when I'm dead'. He's just a normal guy wanting his pals to remember him,nice.

No, Jesus' mission was to reconcile man with God through His own sacrifice.

He became the 'bridge' back to God that was re-established after the fall of man in the Garden of Eden (back in Genesis).

It was the whole reason that He took on flesh, lived a sinless life, died, and rose on the third day.

Jesus defeated the grave, and He made a way for us to follow Him.

When Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of Me" at the Last Supper, He was telling them to remember why He came to earth at all... To provide mankind with a means for salvation.

[Freeedom]

Why use poorly formatted websites? We can use peer-reviewed encyclopedias authored not by anonymous people but people who work in institutions that have quality control mechanism in place.

It is worrisome to see someone training to be a scientist abandon the scientific method and place a web page above the Encyclopedia of Islam which Yale university states is:

"The most important, authoritative reference work in English on Islam and Islamic subjects. Includes long, signed articles, with bibliographies. Special emphasis is given in this (EI2) edition to economic and social topics, but it remains the standard encyclopedic reference on the Islamic religion in English."

Which Stephen Humphrey's (Princetown professor of islamic history) calls "The most important and comprehensive reference tool for Islamic studies is the Encyclopaedia of Islam, an immense effort to deal with every aspect of Islamic civilization, conceived in the widest sense, from its origins down to the present day... EI is no anonymous digest of received wisdom. Most of the articles are signed, and while some are hardly more than dictionary entries, others are true research pieces – in many cases the best available treatment of their subject".

You've stopped thinking critically i won't bother speculating the reasons why. Talk about blinded by faith ... yeah

Fortunately for me this is the tartan army message board and i'm not writing a scientific paper for a journal.

[Scotty CTA]

What's that? A Book written 1400 years ago has some barbaric content you say...

Christianity

the bible has death for Apostasy too, Hell Jesus says "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"

This is only an example of a law that existed.

You haven't provided the context for it's existence or a Biblical example of this punishment even being carried out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Question: "Does the Bible really say that parents should have their rebellious children stoned?"

Answer: This is one of those "Yes, but…" questions that require serious explaining. Leviticus 20:9says, “If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.”

First, a note on the last part of the verse. “His bloodguiltiness is upon him” basically means that he brought this punishment on himself. He knew what he was supposed to do, and he didn't do it. Also, it is important to remember that the Mosaic Law was for God’s covenant people, Israel, living in a theocracy. The Old Testament Law is not in force today (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

Deuteronomy 21:18-21expands on the law:

If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his home town. And they shall say to the elders of his city, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard." Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear of it and fear.

The context of a passage is crucial to understanding what it means. Taking these two verses by themselves, one could come away with a negative attitude toward God and His Word. In the Leviticus passage, this law is part of a section dealing with egregious sins, sins that would tear a nation and family apart. The trespass in question was not a casual, slip-of-the-tongue curse, but a deep-seated rebellion, an ongoing attitude of hatred that had to be dealt with severely. In other words, the punishment was not for minor infractions but for determined defiance.

There are several things to keep in mind about this particular sin and about the law:

The sin was ongoing and continuous.Deuteronomy 21:18indicates that the punishment was only meted out after a persistent refusal to heed both father and mother and after all discipline had failed. The parents have tried to deal with their son in a loving, firm way, but nothing worked.

It was deep-seated sin.Verse 20 specifies that the son is stubborn in his rebellion. Not only is he recalcitrant, “he is a glutton and a drunkard.” This is not a case of a child who misses curfew or plays ball in the house. This a true menace, a child who is causing trouble in society and grieving his parents, possibly to the point of endangering them physically and financially.

The punishment was not an impulsive act of anger or vengeance.Verse 19 says that the city elders had to oversee the case and determine the guilt of the child. It is only after the elders pronounced a sentence of death that the execution could take place. The law did not allow an angry parent to arbitrarily stone a child. A modern equivalent of this is when a parent sees news footage of his child committing a crime and subsequently turns the child in to the police. If parents know their child is acting in a way that endangers society, they are responsible to obey the civil authorities and report the crime.

The punishment was designed to preserve the nation.As verse 21 explains, the reason for this law was to purge evil from society and act as a deterrent to further rebellion. Israel was a nation chosen by God to be holy (Exodus 20:6). God gave the Israelites three types of laws: judicial, moral, and ceremonial. This is a judicial law. A child who was actively and deliberately rejecting the laws of the land needed to be punished judicially.

Which brings us to the last and most important factor:

Rebellion against one’s parents is direct rebellion against God.The 5th Command is to honor one’s father and mother (Exodus 20:12). Parents are a God-ordained authority. Disobedience to parents is disobedience to God (Ephesians 6:1-3). Throughout the Bible, there are only a handful of things we are told to fear: God (Proverbs 1:7) and parents (Leviticus 19:3) are among them.

The law requiring rebellious children to be stoned to death was meant for extreme cases to protect God’s people. It would have been heartbreaking for parents to bear the responsibility of initiating such severe measures. However, the Bible never records this law being enforced.

http://www.gotquestions.org/stone-rebellious-children.html

[phart]

This is only an example of a law that existed.

You haven't provided the context for it's existence or a Biblical example of this punishment even being carried out.

True i was making the point out of the 3 Abrahamic religions the one which didn't have death as the punishment for Apostasy in their main rule book, text thing was Islam. Contrary to the previous claims. I didn't take the time to flesh out the context of the parent thing at all.

[thplinth]

Follow

HashashinTag‏@HashashinTag

Me:... And now a lot of people are cross with Muslims because the men with masks said they were Muslims. 6yo: Why did they wear masks then?

Reply

Retweet

Favorite

More

• RETWEETS14
• FAVORITES17
• 

1:46 PM - 9 Jan 2015

Why did they wear masks? They identified themselves in all but name and left their ID in the car.