Shootiing At French Magazine In Paris

[Hertsscot]

True i was making the point out of the 3 Abrahamic religions the one which didn't have death as the punishment for Apostasy in their main rule book, text thing was Islam. Contrary to the previous claims. I didn't take the time to flesh out the context of the parent thing at all.

The point then is not just about what do the texts say but how they are interpreted by scholars and by communities. I cannot think of any branch of Christianity that would now call for apostates to be killed whereas unfortunately that is not the case in countries like Saudi and Pakistan (ironically who are our 'friends' and closer to Western values).

Why believers in the same religion interpret the texts differently is highly complex but the militancy of certain streams of Islam cannot be divorced from politics whether the Palestinian issue or the legacy of Western colonialism. What is also interesting and I don't know the answer to this is that over the last 20 years or so Islam has featured much more prominently in these pro-Arab, anti-West groups. My impression of terror groups in the 70s were they were much more secular and less driven by religious ideology, indeed predating that era a number of leading Arab nationalists were Christian.

[DonnyTJS]

What is also interesting and I don't know the answer to this is that over the last 20 years or so Islam has featured much more prominently in these pro-Arab, anti-West groups. My impression of terror groups in the 70s were they were much more secular and less driven by religious ideology, indeed predating that era a number of leading Arab nationalists were Christian.

My view on that, for what it's worth (and perforce it's simplistic), is that in the '70s the issues were geopolitical - the status of Palestine and its implications in Cold-War ideological terms. The earlier catalyst for pan-Arab nationalism - European colonization - had in it's most direct form been consigned to history. As you say, many Arab countries, especially those beyond the Gulf, had significant Christian minorities and the independence movements had focused on secular nationalism as a unifying ideology but as the Nasserite independence-generation died out, and as the Cold War crumbled, this pan-Arab secular unity became less important.

Iraq's invasion of Kuwait (an early 'dividend' of the end of the superpower balance post-'89) led to the US and other non-Muslim coalition nations stationing troops in Saudi Arabia - land of the holiest sites of Islam - and maintaining a military presence there long after Saddam had been hoicked out of Kuwait. Add to this the effect of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the formation (with Western collusion) of well-armed groups comprising those united by Islam rather than nationality.

The US had the chance, with the ending of the Cold War, to get all parties round a table (Camp David writ large) and pressure Israel to returning to pre-Six-Day-War borders and there may have been some chance of a permanent settlement. Instead they imposed a massive military presence at the heart of Islam. What a mess.

Edit: Oh yeah, and the last 20 years has seen the coming of the internet - and that just turns folk daft...

Edited January 11, 2015 by DonnyTJS

[kps022000]

I often wonder what peoples real interaction with Muslim people is to form the opinion that Islam is evil or a blight on society. As donny pointed out above, almost as an afterthought, the radicalisation of Muslims is not happening in the Mosques or communities but in the bedrooms and chat rooms.

I have been in many Mosques and been welcomed with open arms, I have seen the extreme generosity of the Muslim community and no one was tried to kill me for being a non believer. There are some Muslim extremists that are hell bent on watching the world burn, however the key word in that phrase is extremist, not Muslim. As for misconstruing an ancient text, not only is every religion guilty of that, right to bear arms anyone.

[thewelk]

Nobody thinks all Christians are bad because the KKK kill some black people.

[thewelk]

These brothers weren't even proper Muslims. Growing up their disenfranchised French ghettos they wanted to be rappers because it was cool. They weren't spending a lot of time at the mosque. They grew up a bit, went to prison (because French society offers almost nothing else to these guys) and were taken advantage of by some nutjob 'clerics' who attach themselves to Islam. You must admit, coming from a computer game generation, jumping around dressed like a ninja wit a big gun is quite cool (maybe it's still bad to say that...) and easy to sell to young guys with nothing else to aim for in life. Disenfranchised idiots + manipulative cleric nutjobs is a bad combination. Very little to do with Islam.

[Ally Bongo]

Nobody thinks all Christians are bad because the KKK kill some black people.

Nobody "Thought" i think you mean

I may be wrong but the KKK committing murder stopped over 30 years ago which brings me to my earlier post.

The West has moved on

Edited January 11, 2015 by Ally Bongo

[thorbotnic]

I often wonder what peoples real interaction with Muslim people is to form the opinion that Islam is evil or a blight on society. As donny pointed out above, almost as an afterthought, the radicalisation of Muslims is not happening in the Mosques or communities but in the bedrooms and chat rooms.

I have been in many Mosques and been welcomed with open arms, I have seen the extreme generosity of the Muslim community and no one was tried to kill me for being a non believer. There are some Muslim extremists that are hell bent on watching the world burn, however the key word in that phrase is extremist, not Muslim. As for misconstruing an ancient text, not only is every religion guilty of that, right to bear arms anyone.

Were you allowed to sit together with your wife? Did you ever come across a female imam or 'community leader'? The inherent sexism in Islam (along with many other religions) is more than enough reason to dislike it.

[thewelk]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-brothers-campaign-of-terror-can-be-traced-back-to-algeria-in-1954-9969184.html

Good article here about why these guys exist in France. Less to do with Islam and more to do with the French being colonial c*nts. Mich like 'us' but a bit more recently.

[kps022000]

It's a very male dominated culture and that in itself is regressive, I will get to that in a bit. We went to see the Imam together on a few occasions and had no issues being together. My fiancé is Muslim, I am catholic so I was not going there to pray. If I was then yes we would have had to have prayed separately. Being old fashioned does not make it evil.

That being said, when we went to my fiancés fathers funeral I saw a few practices that sat really uncomfortably with me. Females are not allowed at the gravesite during the burial, they need to be 20 feet away. They are also not allowed to publicly grieve for someone during the burial. There are plenty of things that Islam needs to do to move forward but there are also plenty of progressive Imams that are trying to do this.

[Betty]

I wonder what the reaction would be if the three books were published for the first time today. Would those religions that follow them embrace them as a measure of their respective beliefs, or would they be denounced as violent and deemed to encourage intolerance and hatred?

In every topic in life there are new text books released which revise thought and practice . Still here we have groups of people clinging on to ideology that was penned nearly 2 thousand years ago.

Now I'm not the brightest lamp on the landing. .. but even I see a problem with that.

[Mindimoo]

I wonder what the reaction would be if the three books were published for the first time today. Would those religions that follow them embrace them as a measure of their respective beliefs, or would they be denounced as violent and deemed to encourage intolerance and hatred?

In every topic in life there are new text books released which revise thought and practice . Still here we have groups of people clinging on to ideology that was penned nearly 2 thousand years ago.

Now I'm not the brightest lamp on the landing. .. but even I see a problem with that.

Great post Betty. Even Delia updates her cookbooks to move with the times.

[scoobydoo]

My view on that, for what it's worth (and perforce it's simplistic), is that in the '70s the issues were geopolitical - the status of Palestine and its implications in Cold-War ideological terms. The earlier catalyst for pan-Arab nationalism - European colonization - had in it's most direct form been consigned to history. As you say, many Arab countries, especially those beyond the Gulf, had significant Christian minorities and the independence movements had focused on secular nationalism as a unifying ideology but as the Nasserite independence-generation died out, and as the Cold War crumbled, this pan-Arab secular unity became less important.

Iraq's invasion of Kuwait (an early 'dividend' of the end of the superpower balance post-'89) led to the US and other non-Muslim coalition nations stationing troops in Saudi Arabia - land of the holiest sites of Islam - and maintaining a military presence there long after Saddam had been hoicked out of Kuwait. Add to this the effect of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the formation (with Western collusion) of well-armed groups comprising those united by Islam rather than nationality.

The US had the chance, with the ending of the Cold War, to get all parties round a table (Camp David writ large) and pressure Israel to returning to pre-Six-Day-War borders and there may have been some chance of a permanent settlement. Instead they imposed a massive military presence at the heart of Islam. What a mess.

Edit: Oh yeah, and the last 20 years has seen the coming of the internet - and that just turns folk daft...

I have a book by a guy called Samuel Huntingdon, wriiten in 1996, called "The Clash of Civilizations and the remaking of the world order".

It found it was difficult to read but is a book that dealt with superior West, an emerging China and Muslim radicalism. (The clash)

From what I can recall he basically said that within 20 or 30 years of then radical islam would emerge and have a hefty foothold due to rampant uncontrolled births and mass unemployment in islamic countires coupled with a subsuquent huge amount of frustrated young muslim males and mass emigration to western societies and subsequent rejection of that Western society.

I think basically what is happening is what he projected and he perhaps only been accelerated by wars perceived to be against Islam.

[DonnyTJS]

I wonder what the reaction would be if the three books were published for the first time today. Would those religions that follow them embrace them as a measure of their respective beliefs, or would they be denounced as violent and deemed to encourage intolerance and hatred?

In every topic in life there are new text books released which revise thought and practice . Still here we have groups of people clinging on to ideology that was penned nearly 2 thousand years ago.

Now I'm not the brightest lamp on the landing. .. but even I see a problem with that.

If you believe that the books are 'the Word of God', then that's not really an option - God exists outside time and is immutable (which is the main difference between her and Delia). A Muslim believes that the Koran in its entirety was dictated to Mohamed by the angel Gabriel and is the immutable word of God - hence the language should never be changed. The Bible on the other hand has been translated, and the language modernized, for centuries. This in itself indicates that most Christians don't view the Bible as the word of God in the same sense as Muslims take the Koran to be .

[DonnyTJS]

I have a book by a guy called Samuel Huntingdon, wriiten in 1996, called "The Clash of Civilizations and the remaking of the world order".

It found it was difficult to read but is a book that dealt with superior West, an emerging China and Muslim radicalism. (The clash)

From what I can recall he basically said that within 20 or 30 years of then radical islam would emerge and have a hefty foothold due to rampant uncontrolled births and mass unemployment in islamic countires coupled with a subsuquent huge amount of frustrated young muslim males and mass emigration to western societies and subsequent rejection of that Western society.

I think basically what is happening is what he projected and he perhaps only been accelerated by wars perceived to be against Islam.

I wouldn't reject any factor out of hand as there are multiple reasons why anyone behaves as they do. Still, accelerating birth rates and mass unemployment are not unique to Islamic countries. My suggestion that the actions of Western governments have provided a focus for radicalized discontent is specific to the Islamic context.

I lived in Cairo between 1986 and 1991, and not in some ex-pat bubble. The population was massive, poverty was everywhere, but the vast majority of people I met were distinctly pro-Western (the most bizarre exhibition of this was watching Rocky IV in a Cairean cinema amid the cheers of the packed house every time Rocky lamped the Commie cheatster). Something changed after that, and a major factor was America's indifference to Islamic sensibilities post-Iraq 1.

[Bristolhibby]

Interesting, not much difference.

Change ISIS terrorist for an Andres Brevic type character. Not much difference.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/06/womans-attempt-to-troll-liberals-backfires-when-someone-notices-this-disturbing-similarity/

J

[Flora MaDonald]

I see the suspect has now reportedly escaped to SYRIA.

and Fringo that poster is spot on.

If that's the case, it's incredible. The whole of the French polis and Army hunting for her and she legs it.

[thewelk]

If that's the case, it's incredible. The whole of the French polis and Army hunting for her and she legs it.

The story is that she was gone before the attacks. No way she would have got there after.

[Flora MaDonald]

The story is that she was gone before the attacks. No way she would have got there after.

Ah, I see.

[Coldo]

Interesting, not much difference.

Change ISIS terrorist for an Andres Brevic type character. Not much difference.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/06/womans-attempt-to-troll-liberals-backfires-when-someone-notices-this-disturbing-similarity/

J

... or the George Bush administration and a sizable amount of republicans.

[Maq]

Sky reporting a French journalist has been taken hostage by IS

[Freeedom]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/saudi-blogger-first-lashes-raif-badawi

"A Saudi blogger convicted of insulting Islam was brought after Friday prayers to a public square in the port city of Jeddah and flogged 50 times before hundreds of spectators, a witness to the lashing said."

Can we stop pretending it is only a small minority of people now ? The problem of Islam is endemic to the middle east and it is impacting on our lives too.

[Hertsscot]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/saudi-blogger-first-lashes-raif-badawi

"A Saudi blogger convicted of insulting Islam was brought after Friday prayers to a public square in the port city of Jeddah and flogged 50 times before hundreds of spectators, a witness to the lashing said."

Can we stop pretending it is only a small minority of people now ? The problem of Islam is endemic to the middle east and it is impacting on our lives too.

No ones pretending anything. Not every Muslim follows the strict, puritanical Wahhabism that the Saudis do. What is interesting is unless you're a member of Amnesty you don't tend to hear what our allies do. Some time back when the Ottoman empire was collapsing we backed the wrong desert tribe, same as backing the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.

[Freeedom]

No ones pretending anything. Not every Muslim follows the strict, puritanical Wahhabism that the Saudis do. What is interesting is unless you're a member of Amnesty you don't tend to hear what our allies do. Some time back when the Ottoman empire was collapsing we backed the wrong desert tribe, same as backing the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.

You're doing it right now, "Not every muslim". I think we know that and nobody is suggesting that it is every muslim but it is still a huge problem that people keep brushing under the carpet with the statements like "not every muslim" and "Islam is not evil".

[DonnyTJS]

You're doing it right now, "Not every muslim". I think we know that and nobody is suggesting that it is every muslim but it is still a huge problem that people keep brushing under the carpet with the statements like "not every muslim" and "Islam is not evil".

And you're saying that "the problem of Islam is endemic to the Middle East". How many countries in the Middle East use Sharia law? A bit more understanding of Islam would not go amiss, because somehow outlawing it across the globe, which seems to be what you're after, isn't going to happen - and, of course, if it did it would make matters worse.

[kps022000]

You're doing it right now, "Not every muslim". I think we know that and nobody is suggesting that it is every muslim but it is still a huge problem that people keep brushing under the carpet with the statements like "not every muslim" and "Islam is not evil".

So do you class Turkey, Bosnia, Macedonia, Indonesia, evil countries?