Indyref 2 (2)

[Ally Bongo]

3 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am highly offended you dont trust me to choose the correct candidate Malcolm. 
As far as I am concerned its a case of, ‘ if you cant beat them, do as they do’ . 

 

I dont know why you respond to him as it is so obvious he is a troll - Johnson, Truss, Sunak ....

I have been gutted for the last 36 hours and i now realise that it is because i trusted and felt sure Sturgeon would get us to Independence albeit eventually by a de facto referendum

The SNP has been a victim of it's own success as you can see by the split in the party

It is a million miles away from the SNP that i first voted for - all on the same page and avoiding scandal

I have never felt that Independence was as far away as i do now - trapped in the control of right wing Brexit binfire England.

Does anyone have anything positive ?

[Hertsscot]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

I dont know why you respond to him as it is so obvious he is a troll - Johnson, Truss, Sunak ....

I have been gutted for the last 36 hours and i now realise that it is because i trusted and felt sure Sturgeon would get us to Independence albeit eventually by a de facto referendum

The SNP has been a victim of it's own success as you can see by the split in the party

It is a million miles away from the SNP that i first voted for - all on the same page and avoiding scandal

I have never felt that Independence was as far away as i do now - trapped in the control of right wing Brexit binfire England.

Does anyone have anything positive ?

Okay. How about the underlying arguments for independence are still the same and maybe Sturgeon's resignation might actually be the kick up the backside some people need to stop their egotistical infighting and the promotion of their pet side issues and start working together to get indy done?

[Ally Bongo]

3 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Okay. How about the underlying arguments for independence are still the same and maybe Sturgeon's resignation might actually be the kick up the backside some people need to stop their egotistical infighting and the promotion of their pet side issues and start working together to get indy done?

Going by what we are seeing from some of the elected members i dont have any confidence

Again - maybe it's because i had so much faith in Sturgeon

[Freeedom]

55 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

 I didn’t think I accused your generation of needing convinced. Not sure why you felt the need to highlight this unless we are all only responsible for convincing people our own age. 

Support moved from 30-45 % due to a good campaign and assisted by a lot of low hanging fruit. The Better Together was also totally caught off guard due to their sheer arrogance that it would never happen.  
They have upped their game since , plus the people who need won over between 2014 and now , are far more rigid in their views and harder to shift. The fact people like yourself feel NS has not done enough to push independence while others think she never shuts up about it only shows that the  whole situation is completely subjective. 
Given what has happened in the UK over the past few years you would have thought independence would be a shoo in. Whilst there may be an argument that NS did not do enough to capitalise on this there is also responsibility on behalf of the electorate to open their bloody eyes and get some backbone. You do not need to have been active on social media or have a subscription to Private Eye to witness the shambles in Westminster. 

I do agree though that there has been no positive campaign which was badly needed to shift opinion. Who knows, NS came with such a high expectation and has clearly disappointed a lot of people. Perhaps with so many underwhelming feelings surrounding her successor this time they will be underestimated and result in a case of ‘under promise/ over deliver’ . 
But it will be dependent on who gets this. Some of the names mentioned would most definitely result in ‘under promise / fucking disaster’ .
With the greatest respect to the people concerned. 
 

 

 

You talked about the responsibility falling to voters so I made the point that my generation voted in favour of independence, it is generally the older generation who are set in their ways and unwilling to bend to reason.

The fact I don't think she did enough to campaign for indy and others think she did too much means nothing, most things in politics are subjective. And really, who is it that thinks she talked about it too much? That would be the people who don't back independence or her political opponents. Given where we currently are in terms of progressing towards our goal, do you actually think she's done a good job? I think on the issue of independence she failed miserably.

Politically I'm a progressive, socialist. My politics are far to the left of Nicola Sturgeon and although I think she talked a good game on social issues to appease the middle classes, ultimately on an economic front she is a centrist, neoliberal who let down the people in society who needed her support the most. Her handling of social inequality, poverty, drug deaths and covid were horrendous and I think she got away with murder.

[Hertsscot]

15 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Going by what we are seeing from some of the elected members i dont have any confidence

Again - maybe it's because i had so much faith in Sturgeon

And then you get this sort of idiocy from a long standing SNP MP...

https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1626288402424365063?t=VHJoClNCjAPYp-84UE9RWQ&s=19

[aaid]

39 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am highly offended you dont trust me to choose the correct candidate Malcolm. 
As far as I am concerned its a case of, ‘ if you cant beat them, do as they do’ . 

 

And here’s me, not even living in Scotland who’ll have a vote while Malcolm won’t.  As Sergeant Major Shut Up used to pit it “oh dear, how sad, never mind”.

[duncan II]

15 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

And then you get this sort of idiocy from a long standing SNP MP...

https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1626288402424365063?t=VHJoClNCjAPYp-84UE9RWQ&s=19

Wishart really does come across as an utter  wank.

My feelings on it are similar to several above. I was positive about Sturgeon, thought she spoke for me and for an independent Scotland and genuinely thought she'd a chance of taking us there. However, in recent years I've become disillusioned with lack of movement on Indy and I left SNP a few years ago. Though I do acknowledge she was a steady hand leading the country and put in a hell of a shift throughout covid. Disappointed with the behaviour of many, on both sides, through this gender argument mess. She is not blameless, especially allying herself closely with abusive twats and failing to speak up in defence of Joanna Cherry.

but the time is right for a new direction, hopefully one with renewed impetus for fighting for Indy.

[Tartan_Tonna]

If it has to be somone in Holyrood then I'd pick Fergus Ewing. 

Alex Salmond is probably close to him. 

He's been criticising the policies of the  new woke SNPHarvie coalition for weeks now. 

The SNPs A9 Road to nowhere. He told the government to apologise. 

The Greens bottle recycling scheme. He's on the side of business. 

The GRR bill. He voted to defend women's single sex spaces from the wokeratti. 

He's get my vote. We don't need a personality in Bute House. We just need someone to spell out the advantages and blueprints of Independence clearly and concisely that supports business and remains firmly planted on the side of public opinion in Scotland. 

I'm sure he'd love his mother Winnie to live to see Independence wouldn't he? 

No more personalities. We don't need another Nicola.

We strong and stable Governance which incudes sacking every single one of Nicola Sturgeon's special advisors and interest groups and policy makers now she's thrown the towel in. 

Her scene setting papers have been garbage. Time for the advisors to be sacked on the spot. 

Vote for Fergus. Do it for Winnie. 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Tartan_Tonna

[Malcolm]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

I am highly offended you dont trust me to choose the correct candidate Malcolm. 
As far as I am concerned its a case of, ‘ if you cant beat them, do as they do’ . 

 

ha ha, I was being a bit cheeky.  when the snp were shouting for a Uk general election when tories were changing leaders.

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

ha ha, I was being a bit cheeky.  when the snp were shouting for a Uk general election when tories were changing leaders.

The problem with the Tories was not so much changing leaders mid term but rather that they four times in five years and - with the exception of Theresa May - ditched the program they’d been elected on.

If the new FM continues with the 2021 program then there should be no issue.  

Edited February 16, 2023 by aaid

[Tartan_Tonna]

https://wingsoverscotland.com/third-rock-from-the-sun/

Unbelievable. The SNP leadership election to take place in 3 weeks. 

1 week too late for the Independence conference. 

But just in time for GRR appeal that no one wants. So they can tie themselves up in that for the rest of their tenure. 

Mike Russell toss pot. He can stick his 11 point plan up his arse. 

Sick of them all. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. We won't be fooled again. 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Tartan_Tonna

[exile]

12 hours ago, aaid said:

That must be the most stupid post that I’ve read on here in a long time, did it actually sound like it made sense when you wrote it.  

The only people who would agree with that are those who think that running the country is some awkward thing that is only designed to hamper the fight for independence.  The two are indivisible. 

Finally, you are way off on your analogy with SF and Michelle O’Neill.  SF believe in a United Ireland and are abstentious towards WM.  They believe that the Dail should be sovereign and not WM, the SNP believe that Holyrood should be sovereign.   Mary Lou McDonald’s job is not to end London rule it is to try and become Taoiseach.   That summary betrays a knowledge of Irish politics through an Anglo-centric lens. 

I think that for independence to take advantage this unexpected disruption, rather than sink back or into the abyss, it needs someone with ingenuity. I've mentioned someone who I think has, though it seems they've ruled themselves out. It doesn't make the suggestion stupid; it just means if such a person can't be found or don't stand, then we're in danger of being snookered. There may be yet one of the younger lesser known people who could has it, but that is yet to be seen.

My point of view is not so much looking forward, but backcasting. That is, asking what would it take, for a future independent Scotland to have seized the present state as an opportunity rather than kicking the can down the road.

The suggestion about the leader at Westminster is in the same frame of mind. If everything was hunky dory you wouldn't change anything. But we are in a grinding stalemate with some people apparently starting to shrug and give up. So, changing things around a bit makes more sense at such a time.

There is no rule to say who should lead from where, the SNP just made it up. Before that it was branch officers, before that we were run by Malcolm Rifkind or someone. A leader has to have a sense of history and opportunity not simply following the normal conventions, a trap increasingly wound round them by the establishment.

Farage got his Brexit without ever having to run a single thing, not even a backbench MPs office. The idea an SNP leader has to earn the right to independence via running more and more things, jumping through more and more hoops, to higher standards, according to rules set by the unionist politicians and media, does not seem them be-all and end-all. I am not saying neglect running the country, just that is not the exclusive priority of a leader of independence.

If now is not the time to take stock and consider doing things differently, when is it?

[exile]

If that puts me on the same side as Malcolm and Tartan, then so be it. Strange times 😅

[Kirk]

22 hours ago, scotlad said:

I noticed that in Copenhagen too when I was there a few years ago. At first I thought they were collecting bottles in the hope of finding some discarded Tuborg to drink until I saw them returning the empty bottles to off sales.

Sad bastards. 😂

aye used to see them walking about with 2 or 3 massive bin bags each, or a trolley full. Good way to get smack money

6 hours ago, Tartan_Tonna said:

The membership will vote for Joanna Cherry. 

The Liberal woke SNP that is in bed with the greens is finished. 

The nationalist membership will remove Nicola Sturgeon's allies from the race. 

The police will remove Peter Murrell. 

Craig Murray's access to Stuart McDonalds emails, will help regain control of the SNP and ensure that Independence will be put front and centre of the agenda. 

Steven Flynn and the rest can follow Nicola out the door they want to hold us hostage. We won't allow it. We've suffered long enough under Sturgeon.

Time for pay back. The membership couldn't give a fuck about GRR. 

 

you dont half talk a load of shite

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

I dont know why you respond to him as it is so obvious he is a troll - Johnson, Truss, Sunak ....

I have been gutted for the last 36 hours and i now realise that it is because i trusted and felt sure Sturgeon would get us to Independence albeit eventually by a de facto referendum

The SNP has been a victim of it's own success as you can see by the split in the party

It is a million miles away from the SNP that i first voted for - all on the same page and avoiding scandal

I have never felt that Independence was as far away as i do now - trapped in the control of right wing Brexit binfire England.

Does anyone have anything positive ?

Im feeling the same, its done for a very long time now. Ive fallen away from really caring sadly

[exile]

13 hours ago, aaid said:

Finally, you are way off on your analogy with SF and Michelle O’Neill. ...   That summary betrays a knowledge of Irish politics through an Anglo-centric lens. 

No need for Anglo-centric lens if you stick to the extent the analogy was originally intended. 

[aaid]

6 minutes ago, exile said:

No need for Anglo-centric lens if you stick to the extent the analogy was originally intended. 

It is, because you’re assuming SF is a single issue party.  That hasn’t been true for a couple of decades or so. 

[exile]

5 minutes ago, aaid said:

It is, because you’re assuming SF is a single issue party.  That hasn’t been true for a couple of decades or so. 

Who said SF were a single issue party? I made a one line analogy and you are twisting it to say something I didn't say, and then saying I'm Anglo-centric! 

[aaid]

11 minutes ago, exile said:

Who said SF were a single issue party? I made a one line analogy and you are twisting it to say something I didn't say, and then saying I'm Anglo-centric! 

You did. Michelle O’Neill to do Devo and Mary Lou to take on the UKG.  Apart from it being wrong in terms of the SF hierarchy, it looks a SF purely from the perspective of a United Ireland which is an Anglo centric view.  
 

[ParisInAKilt]

9 hours ago, Freeedom said:

You talked about the responsibility falling to voters so I made the point that my generation voted in favour of independence, it is generally the older generation who are set in their ways and unwilling to bend to reason.

The fact I don't think she did enough to campaign for indy and others think she did too much means nothing, most things in politics are subjective. And really, who is it that thinks she talked about it too much? That would be the people who don't back independence or her political opponents. Given where we currently are in terms of progressing towards our goal, do you actually think she's done a good job? I think on the issue of independence she failed miserably.

Politically I'm a progressive, socialist. My politics are far to the left of Nicola Sturgeon and although I think she talked a good game on social issues to appease the middle classes, ultimately on an economic front she is a centrist, neoliberal who let down the people in society who needed her support the most. Her handling of social inequality, poverty, drug deaths and covid were horrendous and I think she got away with murder.

Good post. I’d guess a lot of people in Scotland would share a similar opinion.

To suddenly just quit with the independence conference in a few weeks as well and no obvious successor or coherent plan to gain independence is incredibly disappointing. 

[Squirrelhumper]

10 hours ago, duncan II said:

Wishart really does come across as an utter  wank.

My feelings on it are similar to several above. I was positive about Sturgeon, thought she spoke for me and for an independent Scotland and genuinely thought she'd a chance of taking us there. However, in recent years I've become disillusioned with lack of movement on Indy and I left SNP a few years ago. Though I do acknowledge she was a steady hand leading the country and put in a hell of a shift throughout covid. Disappointed with the behaviour of many, on both sides, through this gender argument mess. She is not blameless, especially allying herself closely with abusive twats and failing to speak up in defence of Joanna Cherry.

but the time is right for a new direction, hopefully one with renewed impetus for fighting for Indy.

Pretty much my current feelings.

[Squirrelhumper]

9 hours ago, Tartan_Tonna said:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/third-rock-from-the-sun/

Unbelievable. The SNP leadership election to take place in 3 weeks. 

1 week too late for the Independence conference. 

But just in time for GRR appeal that no one wants. So they can tie themselves up in that for the rest of their tenure. 

Mike Russell toss pot. He can stick his 11 point plan up his arse. 

Sick of them all. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. We won't be fooled again. 

 

I'm sick of folk quoting that utter unionist cretin from Bath.

[Squirrelhumper]

10 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

And then you get this sort of idiocy from a long standing SNP MP...

https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1626288402424365063?t=VHJoClNCjAPYp-84UE9RWQ&s=19

He's a complete bellend.

[Freeedom]

3 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Good post. I’d guess a lot of people in Scotland would share a similar opinion.

To suddenly just quit with the independence conference in a few weeks as well and no obvious successor or coherent plan to gain independence is incredibly disappointing. 

Thanks.

I think a lot of people in my age group are much more left leaning than Sturgeon and her generation are. A lot of us are working our asses off for poverty wages and can't get on the property ladder whilst she's allowed Edinburgh to turn into the Airbnb capital of the UK. 

She's left us in the middle of nowhere in regards to independence and you have to say, is that it, was this really the plan? She's fucked off and left us with a "Thanks and good luck" after 9 years of nothing.

It's obvious the walls were closing in on her politically and I'm sure we'll find out the real reasons for her departure in the next few weeks. All hell is going to break loose in the SNP, it's going to be a war. Sturgeon managed to keep the lid on that for years but now it's going to blow and people will start speaking their mind.

 

[exile]

9 hours ago, aaid said:

You did. Michelle O’Neill to do Devo and Mary Lou to take on the UKG.  Apart from it being wrong in terms of the SF hierarchy, it looks a SF purely from the perspective of a United Ireland which is an Anglo centric view.  
 

Eh, no. The whole basis of the analogy was to compare two parties that have both domestic and constitutional agendas, neither being a single issue party. The analogy simply wouldn't work if I thought SF was a single issue party. 

[hampden_loon2878]

20 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Well you better get used to the idea as out of all the MSPs he is the only one with the proven credentials to do it and wants to do it

The criteria should be who can we run a referendum/defacto referendum with as leader that could win it

In other words - Who could you see as the initial FM of an Independent country ?

So when you offer up the likes of Keith Brown, Ash Regan, Joanna Cherry, John Swinney et al you are living in fantasy land

you are either naive or reckless if you vote for angus Robertson. The snp will fold if that happens