The Brexit Thread

[thplinth]

57 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I agree the anti tory chat is not at all helpful to the independence movement and we most certainly do need to create a broad political umbrella. 

But after listening to Johnson talking down to us like shit on his shoe it is understandable why some people detest them. Yes he was aiming his criticism at the SNP but in doing so he was also flexing his muscles and reminding us who is really in control of these so called devolved powers. 
 

For a long while the pro YES supporting right of centre folk have tolerated this anti right bias within the SNP. In the last few years it has become rabid, ugly, toxic.

The SNP went left. That is why we need a new party. It was not me leaving the SNP or anyone else. The SNP moved from us.

[phart]

19 minutes ago, thplinth said:

For a long while the pro YES supporting right of centre folk have tolerated this anti right bias within the SNP. In the last few years it has become rabid, ugly, toxic.

The SNP went left. That is why we need a new party. It was not me leaving the SNP or anyone else. The SNP moved from us.

The only debate you get from Tyder the rest are reduced to selecting an emoji from a list to express themselves.

[Eisegerwind]

Yeah, well, when you're on ignore! Have a laugh.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Eisegerwind

[Orraloon]

11 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said:

Yeah, well, when you're on ignore! Have a laugh.

You're giving Tidy a bad reputation.

[WCTA]

13 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

You're giving Tidy a bad reputation.

I like how She even refers to her Husband as Mr. Tidier now. 😂

[TDYER63]

Err hellloooo ! I am here ya know !   🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️🙋‍♀️
 

30 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

You're giving Tidy a bad reputation.

My reputation sank days ago . Imagine your star going out on a thread titled ‘Hydro seating/standing. 😕

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, exile said:

I do agree that people - parties - and websites - representing the independence movement should be broad and inclusive, and ideally should not be slagging off right-leaning voters, No voters, Tory voters, Leave voters, etc. For example a pro-indy website that was all about Tory bashing or Yoon baiting would not convert many people. 

But I think in an open forum it's fair enough to call out the behaviour of politicians - as people here do for parties on all sides - when they behave in a way we think is harmful or contemptible. Especially when our beloved media fail to hold them to account. For example I have never heard any British journalist ask any Scots Tory about the NI blood red lines; just as I have never heard any journalist ask Gordon Brown (despite dozens of speeches and interviews) what happened to Devo Max/federalism; never in 5 years! 😒 

Absolutely call out politicians.Of all parties.
 But if we are trying to get people to consider independence I am not sure a conservative voter,  for example , would be impressed with politicians of their party generally being branded ‘odious ‘ or whatever. If these voters identify with the party then we are effectively saying they are odious too. I am pretty sure there will be conservative voters on this forum. 

It is absolutely right to highlight the deficiencies or hypocrisy of politicians but chucking general insults about really does undermine and detract from the points being raised.

On this board I think its just that people get a wee bit passionate sometimes. 

 

 

 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, thplinth said:

For a long while the pro YES supporting right of centre folk have tolerated this anti right bias within the SNP. In the last few years it has become rabid, ugly, toxic.

The SNP went left. That is why we need a new party. It was not me leaving the SNP or anyone else. The SNP moved from us.

How would you change the party ? 

[Grim Jim]

2 hours ago, phart said:

The only debate you get from Tyder the rest are reduced to selecting an emoji from a list to express themselves.

[phart]

2 minutes ago, Grim Jim said:

It's true the ability to express oneself has been eschewed for the ability to select a preset response. be it a meme or an emoji. Attention spans are reducing as well.

If folk want there thoughts to be on rails and beholden to whoever makes the rails then they're going about it the right way.

I prefer to do my own thinking and your expressions are just an extension of ones thoughts.

[Grim Jim]

3 minutes ago, phart said:

It's true the ability to express oneself has been eschewed for the ability to select a preset response. be it a meme or an emoji. Attention spans are reducing as well.

If folk want there thoughts to be on rails and beholden to whoever makes the rails then they're going about it the right way.

I prefer to do my own thinking and your expressions are just an extension of ones thoughts.

I do respect your modulations, but I just could not find an emoji of yer cus ridin' his own boaby

[phart]

28 minutes ago, Grim Jim said:

I do respect your modulations, but I just could not find an emoji of yer cus ridin' his own boaby

I tried to make sense of that but ultimately failed. I think you're talking about my cousin riding his own penis, and some esoteric use of the word modulation.

Since i know you can communicate clearly when you want, one can only deduce something like fear/terror/timidity is making you obfuscate your point.

[phart]

4 hours ago, exile said:

I do agree that people - parties - and websites - representing the independence movement should be broad and inclusive, and ideally should not be slagging off right-leaning voters, No voters, Tory voters, Leave voters, etc. For example a pro-indy website that was all about Tory bashing or Yoon baiting would not convert many people. 

But I think in an open forum it's fair enough to call out the behaviour of politicians - as people here do for parties on all sides - when they behave in a way we think is harmful or contemptible. Especially when our beloved media fail to hold them to account. For example I have never heard any British journalist ask any Scots Tory about the NI blood red lines; just as I have never heard any journalist ask Gordon Brown (despite dozens of speeches and interviews) what happened to Devo Max/federalism; never in 5 years! 😒 

Partisans put you off politics. They have a side they support and demonise the other side. you're trying to pilot a ship to port and you have one side that say anyone that turns to port is a wanker and the other side saying anyone who turns to starboard is a wanker. Then argue about what way to turn when in actual fact it's entirely dependent of where you are whether turning port or starboard is the best.

Also has no ones views evolved over the last 5 years or are they thinking the same shit they thought 5 years ago. Look at the currency issue, stagnant for over a decade. Where's the evolved views, the added depth the nuance.

[WCTA]

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcdebatenight/status/1189673928983269376?s=21

[vanderark14]

On 10/29/2019 at 11:29 AM, hampden_loon2878 said:

My father in law, who was all for indy and been a snp voter his whole life said he will vote torie due to the snp’s antics down at Westminster, he doesn't hold very strong views on the EU, i think there will be a lot of folk like this. He stated before he could never vote torie due to the “unionist” in their name, its a sad day the snp have managed to push him into voting a party he doesn’t like 

Your father in law thinks the SNP's antics are bad yet he's going to vote Tory who's antics in Westminster have been nothing short of a disgrace. Your father in law needs some new meds 

[thplinth]

11 hours ago, phart said:

The only debate you get from Tyder the rest are reduced to selecting an emoji from a list to express themselves.

Aye 'Tidy' is one of the few still putting a bit of effort on here. God only knows what kind of sad case wanker actually uses those emoji vote things. 

[thplinth]

9 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

How would you change the party ? 

What is the point? It is what it is. When being a centrist is perceived as right then I think that indicates the problem.

HL here has basically been called a liar here for posting his own experiences (and not for the first time). That said the TAMB was always like this even its heyday (probably worse even). 

 

[aaid]

9 hours ago, phart said:

It's true the ability to express oneself has been eschewed for the ability to select a preset response. be it a meme or an emoji. Attention spans are reducing as well.

If folk want there thoughts to be on rails and beholden to whoever makes the rails then they're going about it the right way.

I prefer to do my own thinking and your expressions are just an extension of ones thoughts.

If you're going to go off on one about people's use of the English language then it's probably a good idea to get your theirs and theres correct.

Just like memes and emojis, autocorrect has a lot to answer for. 

[hampden_loon2878]

2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Your father in law thinks the SNP's antics are bad yet he's going to vote Tory who's antics in Westminster have been nothing short of a disgrace. Your father in law needs some new meds 

Its through sheer stubbornness, a part of me thinks its to wind me up. 

[PapofGlencoe]

11 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Absolutely call out politicians.Of all parties.
 But if we are trying to get people to consider independence I am not sure a conservative voter,  for example , would be impressed with politicians of their party generally being branded ‘odious ‘ or whatever. If these voters identify with the party then we are effectively saying they are odious too. I am pretty sure there will be conservative voters on this forum. 

It is absolutely right to highlight the deficiencies or hypocrisy of politicians but chucking general insults about really does undermine and detract from the points being raised.

On this board I think its just that people get a wee bit passionate sometimes. 

 

 

 

the language has to be couched but one of the main reasons there is an independent movement of any stripe at all is that Labour played the Scottish card in the 80s and 90s.

The lack of legitimacy of Tory rule is one of the strongest cards the independence movement has.  It's not nationalistic, it's simple democratic deficit.

The other is nationalism, in that we are country so should just be the same as any other one in Europe.

Both go hand in hand.

The tories, despite Davidsons' mini revival, much hyped are still far from a party most Scots identify with. 

[Alibi]

On 10/29/2019 at 2:19 PM, ParisInAKilt said:

Nobody should follow a political party like they do a football team. Unless that team is Greenock Morton ...

Think I may just have worked out who you are...

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, thplinth said:

What is the point? It is what it is. When being a centrist is perceived as right then I think that indicates the problem.

HL here has basically been called a liar here for posting his own experiences (and not for the first time). That said the TAMB was always like this even its heyday (probably worse even). 

 

I would probably class myself as centrist but its a hard place to position yourself as a political party as it is impossible to please everyone. Theres a reason only Labour and Conservative have dominated UK politics for donkeys years. How would YOU woo voters without alienating the new voters the party has picked up ? 

People should be paying attention to HL not rubbishing anything they don't like the sound of. That said, on the specific subject of his father in law , I personally cannot understand how anyone who is a life long SNP and independence supporter could vote Tory based on a one ticket policy of Brexit.
If he is still pro indeoendance , and NS puts independance at the heart of this election, why would you risk the perception that interest in independence is on the wane by voting for the Tories ?
Either being out the EU is more important to you or perhaps you feel it is not the right time for another independence vote.

The latter is understandable given the polls, however I thought Exile’s response to the orange walk analogy was excellent,  there is a lot at stake and its a high risk strategy IMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Caledonian Craig]

People often put up barriers/reasons for not voting for independence.

Now I know of people who saw Salmond as a divisive character and likewise now some are saying they won't vote Yes because of her. Or you get those who think a vote for independence is a vote for the SNP and won't do it. Others say because the SNP push for independence within the EU they won't back it.

People need to get a sense of perspective here. Gaining independence gives us the chance to choose our path. Salmond (in 2014) or Nicola (whenever) are mere stepping stones and will not be around forever whereas independence will (hopefully). Independence also would see us having a choice on EU membership which we do not have at present. And if the SNP do not float your boat then your chance will come to deselect them in the elections that follow.

Independence has to come first though. Without that the rest is immaterial.

[aaid]

15 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I would probably class myself as centrist but its a hard place to position yourself as a political party as it is impossible to please everyone. Theres a reason only Labour and Conservative have dominated UK politics for donkeys years. How would YOU woo voters without alienating the new voters the party has picked up ? 

People should be paying attention to HL not rubbishing anything they don't like the sound of. That said, on the specific subject of his father in law , I personally cannot understand how anyone who is a life long SNP and independence supporter could vote Tory based on a one ticket policy of Brexit.
If he is still pro indeoendance , and NS puts independance at the heart of this election, why would you risk the perception that interest in independence is on the wane by voting for the Tories ?
Either being out the EU is more important to you or perhaps you feel it is not the right time for another independence vote.

The latter is understandable given the polls, however I thought Exile’s response to the orange walk analogy was excellent,  there is a lot at stake and its a high risk strategy IMO. 

 

 

 

 

 

Most people would describe themselves as centrist though, that's a pretty natural perspective to take - "my views are entirely rational and not extreme", also assisted if you tend to only be exposed to arguments that suits your own particular bias.   That's not a go at you specifically, just a general observation.

I always remember a friend of mine was asked about a particular politician - "is he of the left".  His response was "it depends where you define the centre".

Have a go at this and see where you *actually* are on the spectrum, you may or may not be surprised.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, PapofGlencoe said:

the language has to be couched but one of the main reasons there is an independent movement of any stripe at all is that Labour played the Scottish card in the 80s and 90s.

The lack of legitimacy of Tory rule is one of the strongest cards the independence movement has.  It's not nationalistic, it's simple democratic deficit.

The other is nationalism, in that we are country so should just be the same as any other one in Europe.

Both go hand in hand.

The tories, despite Davidsons' mini revival, much hyped are still far from a party most Scots identify with. 

The language being used is my main bone of contention, not the content. I agree we should be highlighting the democratic deficit.     However if you have a good argument and are  articulate there is no need to resort to sweeping insults.

I only used the Conservatives as an example, I  completely agree the majority of scots dont identify with them , but there are more Tories out there than you may think.

Even name calling terms  like ‘Fib Dems’ etc are childish and unlikely to sway anyone. Show up their lies by all means but terms like this are petty.