PapofGlencoe Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, TDYER63 said: The language being used is my main bone of contention, not the content. I agree we should be highlighting the democratic deficit. However if you have a good argument and are articulate there is no need to resort to sweeping insults. I only used the Conservatives as an example, I completely agree the majority of scots dont identify with them , but there are more Tories out there than you may think. Even name calling terms like ‘Fib Dems’ etc are childish and unlikely to sway anyone. Show up their lies by all means but terms like this are petty. Aye i totally agree. was just saying I think the anti-tory message is actually important. tory scum..hmm nah. I can't imagine the likes of Jimmy Reid needing to say that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 The SNP are in a very tricky position at the moment. It's difficult to come up with a coherent strategy when you don't have a Scooby what your opposition is going to do next. The opponents don't even have much of a clue what they themselves are going to do next. It's like trying to come up with a game plan to play against a team with five Ted McMinns in it. I think the SNP have missed a trick by making the whole issue more complicated than it needs to be. The message should be simple. The people of England voted to leave the EU. The people of Scotland voted to stay in the UK and to stay in the EU. That is the one option which they are not being allowed to have. The only way to resolve this democratic dilemma is to ask the people of Scotland what is more important to them. Then it's just all about timing. Boris will have a very simple message of this election. We will hear "Make brexit happen" more often than TM said "Strong and stable" in the last one. There has always been a wide range of opinions within the SNP about how to get independence. The gradualists v the fundamentalists. A lot of SNP folk were against devolution. A lot of folk left the SNP because of Alex Salmond's gradualist approach. The big debate at present is about when to go again. The issue of how we go about it, is also a bit of a problem area. A lot of people think we have to do something before the "mandate runs out" in 2021. AS was one of them. he wanted to do something very soon after the brexit vote in 2016. I think he might have gone for some sort of vote in 2018? His view was that using a starting point of 45% there is an excellent chance of persuading enough voters over to our side during the campaign. But one of the problems with that is that the mangate hasn't even kicked in yet, We haven't left the EU and there is still a chance that we won't. It's now looking like the mandate in terms of numbers at Holyrood will have run out before the mandate in terms of leaving the EU kicks in. Other folk think we should wait until we have a much better chance of winning. So delaying brexit might suit them just fine. There could be a fine line between delaying brexit and stopping it altogether though. If the brexit vote gets reversed we can forget about an indyref for the foreseeable future. It's not an easy balancing act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCTA Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, aaid said: Most people would describe themselves as centrist though, that's a pretty natural perspective to take - "my views are entirely rational and not extreme", also assisted if you tend to only be exposed to arguments that suits your own particular bias. That's not a go at you specifically, just a general observation. I always remember a friend of mine was asked about a particular politician - "is he of the left". His response was "it depends where you define the centre". Have a go at this and see where you *actually* are on the spectrum, you may or may not be surprised. https://www.politicalcompass.org/ That test was good. This is my results based upon taking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCTA Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, Orraloon said: The SNP are in a very tricky position at the moment. It's difficult to come up with a coherent strategy when you don't have a Scooby what your opposition is going to do next. The opponents don't even have much of a clue what they themselves are going to do next. It's like trying to come up with a game plan to play against a team with five Ted McMinns in it. It's not an easy balancing act. Current Ted McMinns or previous ones? Couldn’t help but notice how you finished your post too. 👀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, WCTA said: Current Ted McMinns or previous ones? Couldn’t help but notice how you finished your post too. 👀 I wish I could say it was deliberate. Which, funnily enough, is what he used to say a lot too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, WCTA said: That test was good. This is my results based upon taking it. Not far off where i was either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 I don't need to do the test. I know I will be bang in the middle. I'm the only normal person I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 I agree with most of Orraloon's post above. However regarding the mandate for indyref2: originally it was predicated on Brexit and Scotland being ordered to leave the EU against our collective will. However things have moved on, and now there is an even stronger argument for indy that does not directly depend on Brexit at all, but is based on the way Scotland has been treated over the last 5 years, and particularly since the 2016 vote. At every opportunity we have been ridiculed, belittled, ignored, and generally shat on by the Westminster parties. It is as clear as daylight that the equal partner shite was just insincere flattery with no real basis in fact. I would hope that many people have now woken up to what happened in 2014, and anecdotal evidence suggests that there has been a drift from No to Yes, albeit a slow process. I don't actually know what the figures are because reliable polls about indy seem to be few and far between, and in any case I am always suspicious of polls as they are more about influencing opinion rather than measuring it; about control rather than information gathering. Anyone who would still vote to allow Westminster to continue to treat Scotland as an abused spouse needs to have a word with themselves. Indy is justified (even without Brexit) by the way we have been, and are being, treated. In my opinion (as a yes/remain voter), the SNP should make it clear that while the party may itself support full EU membership, they would immediately on achieving a Yes vote, hold a consultative referendum on our relationship with Europe, with a choice between EU, EEA or whatever the correct term is now, and leave. I am sure that leave would be in last place in that one, but it allows leave voters who would be OK with the single market and customs union to have that option. It would also demonstrate that indy is not the sole property of the SNP. Given the shocking way that the EU has hung Catalunya out to dry, I have reservations about full EU membership, although would still vote for it, but a less rigid option would probably be acceptable as it's the freedom of movement & CU/SM etc. that matters to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 18 minutes ago, WCTA said: That test was good. This is my results based upon taking it. 5 minutes ago, aaid said: Not far off where i was either. 😂😂 me neither. So much for my ‘centrist ‘ views. I am 1 box up and 2 boxes to the right of WCTA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCTA Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, TDYER63 said: 😂😂 me neither. So much for my ‘centrist ‘ views. I am 1 box up and 2 boxes to the right of WCTA. Ya Fascist ye. 😇 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 hours ago, thplinth said: Aye 'Tidy' is one of the few still putting a bit of effort on here. God only knows what kind of sad case wanker actually uses those emoji vote things. Ah, you guessed. Have a laughie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, WCTA said: Ya Fascist ye. 😇 😂😂 Apparently we are both liberal leftists. Just like Ghandi 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 i've completed that test before. I dont' think it's actually possible to get onto the right hand side unless you are a psychopath! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 6 hours ago, aaid said: If you're going to go off on one about people's use of the English language then it's probably a good idea to get your theirs and theres correct. Just like memes and emojis, autocorrect has a lot to answer for. It's not auto-correct.I type on a keyboard, I don't go online on a phone normally. Since time began on this board i have made deliberate mistakes when making arguments to show that people will focus on small things like spelling mistakes grammatical errors etc rather than debate the larger subject. I've literally being doing it on here since 2007ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, phart said: It's not auto-correct.I type on a keyboard, I don't go online on a phone normally. Since time began on this board i have made deliberate mistakes when making arguments to show that people will focus on small things like spelling mistakes grammatical errors etc rather than debate the larger subject. I've literally being doing it on here since 2007ish. Very good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, aaid said: Most people would describe themselves as centrist though, that's a pretty natural perspective to take - "my views are entirely rational and not extreme", also assisted if you tend to only be exposed to arguments that suits your own particular bias. That's not a go at you specifically, just a general observation. I always remember a friend of mine was asked about a particular politician - "is he of the left". His response was "it depends where you define the centre". Have a go at this and see where you *actually* are on the spectrum, you may or may not be surprised. https://www.politicalcompass.org/ I'm sitting this atm and the fault it has is it only presents the current political landscape, for example this question " Controlling inflation is more important than controlling unemployment." Remove central banking , remove fractional reserve lending then you don't have these problems, sure you'll probably have other problems but there is answers outside the current system. It also assumed globalisation is inevitable etc. Just got to this question Astrology accurately explains many things. I wonder what difference it makes. Edited October 31, 2019 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, aaid said: Very good It's straight up facts. If the archives weren't fecked i'd have reached deep into them and pulled out a dozen or so examples. I adopted the strategy to deal with folk nitpicking back in the days when we had enough people you'd be arguing with a dozen different folk at one time. It also served as a great cover for when i did ineviatbly make a mistake when writing shit out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, phart said: I'm sitting this atm and the fault it has is it only presents the current political landscape, for example this question " Controlling inflation is more important than controlling unemployment." Remove central banking , remove fractional reserve lending then you don't have these problems, sure you'll probably have other problems but there is answers outside the current system. It also assumed globalisation is inevitable etc. The point of these questions is to remove nuance and to force you to make a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, aaid said: The point of these questions is to remove nuance and to force you to make a choice. Just go to this one Astrology accurately explains many things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) Economic Left/Right: -6.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.36 Edited October 31, 2019 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, phart said: Just go to this one Astrology accurately explains many things. Some people believe that, just as some people believe in fairy stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 It's weird for the economy one, I would probably have an almost free market under the lines of conservative political theorist Thomas Sowell, but have a hugely harsh punitive system in place for all the unregulated shit. I'm not even sure i believe in minimum wage now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, phart said: Economic Left/Right: -6.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.36 😂😂 I am bitterly disappointed you didn't make the bottom left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, TDYER63 said: 😂😂 I am bitterly disappointed you didn't make the bottom left. I think my answer on free markets might have stymied that. Good to see I'm a liberal Stalin though They say you get more right wing as you get older as well. I'm 40 now Edited October 31, 2019 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 16 hours ago, phart said: Look at the currency issue, stagnant for over a decade. Where's the evolved views, the added depth the nuance. You missed Andrew Wilson's and Robin McAlpine's contributions then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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