The Brexit Thread

[thplinth]

How many of you have anything to compare to? 

The NHS with its long history in its favour compares badly to countries which have barely escaped communism.

I would bet that a Scot now living in Slovakia, Czech, Slovenia, Poland etc would  choose to stay in those new countries than go home to the NHS for treatment of a serious illness. Just my views...

NHS... pffft. The NHS is really poor.

 

[kumnio]

International statistics by an independent body. I’d maybe believe them. 

Unless experts are now bad. Very bad. Not to be trusted. Fake news. 

[euan2020]

10 hours ago, thplinth said:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the NHS is a quite poor health service. Everyone thinks it is the best for the reason it is mostly free. What do you want though? The correct diagnosis or the free diagnosis. So many stories of their negligence... It would make an interesting thread if folk were asked to tell their own stories of neglect and bad practice. Recently a friend of the family went on holiday to the US and had a fall... went to the local US hospital and the doctor looking at her as an aside told her she had Crohns disease I think it was But it may have been something similar... she had been suffering from the symptoms for 20 years chronically and her NHS GP had just completely missed it. 20 Mins in a US hospital and it was indentified as an aside... IMHO the NHS is rather shit value for the money. Her GP did apologize to her though so that is ok...

Only been in US 3 months and already racked up $1100 of medical bills for mundane stuff which i have to pay (& that is on top of $1000 a month medical cover (80% Employer paid) 

Apparently in US there is 7 administrators for every 10 doctors, as they piss around deciding how much they want to charge you 

For $1100 diagnosis was ambigous pish which meant nothing - typical quack responses, effectively giving no diagnosis

[ParisInAKilt]

From a working perspective I don’t miss the NHS 

[thplinth]

I would not want the us system either. The costs are ridiculous. But that was not the point. I realise it is sensitive subjective for many but I don’t think the NHS is all it is cracked up to be. I am not going against your statistics just by my experiences.

[ParisInAKilt]

30 minutes ago, thplinth said:

I would not want the us system either. The costs are ridiculous. But that was not the point. I realise it is sensitive subjective for many but I don’t think the NHS is all it is cracked up to be. I am not going against your statistics just by my experiences.

Aye I’m not sure that socialised / national healthcare is necessarily the best system either but something id need to look into more.  It’s a political football. 

[Fairbairn]

11 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

If this is a survey, then a private clinic in the US failed to diagnose that I had a broken leg.   Glad I got home a few days later to get it fixed.

Both my parents have had a cancer. In the case of my Dad the hospital lost his initial results.  it took them 6 weeks to tell us that and a further 6 weeks to arrange follow up tests and then another 3 weeks to get the results.  In that time the cancer spread from what they thought the original findings were and he was given 6 months, lasted 7.  The consensus was he would probably have got longer if that hadn't happened.  In the case of my Mum she was diagnosed pretty quickly and put on a pretty aggressive course of Chemo.  After 3 chemo treatments which pretty much wiped her out (she was 70) they contacted her to tell her they had misread her diagnosis and she didn't need chemo and a much milder course of radiotherapy would be sufficient.  By this point she had already started to lose her hair, toe nails and finger nails.  While we agreed we'd rather they were over cautious than under, to have 2 parents out of 2 so abhorrently treated is a scandalous state of affairs.

All that being said, I'd still rather have the NHS than not and be at the mercy of private health services and insurance companies.

 

[thplinth]

24 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Aye I’m not sure that socialised / national healthcare is necessarily the best system either but something id need to look into more.  It’s a political football. 

Evidently judging by a couple of the responses above. I am someone who would take British Rail back if I could go back in time and stab Thatcher in the heart. But really is the quality of care that great? I am increasingly not convinced. Difficult to explain why without getting into specifics but  the most recent example shocked me. They just seem to miss stuff.

Edited June 6, 2019 by thplinth

[TDYER63]

10 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Ever thought of drinking tap water?

🤔, I have. But old habits die hard. It was tough growing up in Paisley. 

I remember going to the Paisley baths , they were Victorian baths and had some small individual hot bath tubs as well as the main swimming pool.  Jobbies were regularly seen floating in the tubs. Nobody seemed to bother, they were just scooped out and the next person hopped in. 

 

 

[thplinth]

I know I brought up the US in the original example but comparisons to their insane system are not useful. Their system is hell due to the mad costs. The care might be good if you can afford it but it has been completely distorted by big pharma and the insurance companies etc. Unfortunately if the UK does ever change you know it will slavishly follow the US route. 

I look more to countries in Europe. I don't think it would be hard to find expats there who still have access to the NHS but also to their host country's health system and so can meaningfully compare. How many will tell you if they fell ill they'd prefer to get treated there than by the NHS? Be interesting to know. We are not talking all the countries in Europe obviously but I am pretty sure there are a good few where the NHS would be viewed as a step down in comparison. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by thplinth

[Caledonian Craig]

Private health services are profit-driven just like anything that includes handing money over for services. Its a service where, if you aren't well off, you'd end up prioritising which medical ailment to have treated. You'll also find that those treating you will find the slightest ailments and put a price on them to be treated from anything from a wart to a boil on the arse. No thanks. And no doubt it still involves tiered levels of service whereas the rich get premium treatment in quickest time whilst those not so well off will still need to wait. I can picture it all if it all comes to be. Gold Status £10,000 a year gets same day walk-in appointments and operations in the quickest time along with unlimited free check-ups. Silver Status £5,000 a year gets an appointment within 24 to 48 hours, operations inside two weeks and a limited amount of free check-ups. Bronze Status £1,000 a year gets an appointment with GP within a week, operations on a waiting list system and check-ups for a small additional fee.

No thanks.

[TDYER63]

36 minutes ago, Fairbairn said:

Both my parents have had a cancer. In the case of my Dad the hospital lost his initial results.  it took them 6 weeks to tell us that and a further 6 weeks to arrange follow up tests and then another 3 weeks to get the results.  In that time the cancer spread from what they thought the original findings were and he was given 6 months, lasted 7.  The consensus was he would probably have got longer if that hadn't happened.  In the case of my Mum she was diagnosed pretty quickly and put on a pretty aggressive course of Chemo.  After 3 chemo treatments which pretty much wiped her out (she was 70) they contacted her to tell her they had misread her diagnosis and she didn't need chemo and a much milder course of radiotherapy would be sufficient.  By this point she had already started to lose her hair, toe nails and finger nails.  While we agreed we'd rather they were over cautious than under, to have 2 parents out of 2 so abhorrently treated is a scandalous state of affairs.

All that being said, I'd still rather have the NHS than not and be at the mercy of private health services and insurance companies.

 

That is quite unacceptable Fairbairn and very tough for your family. 

My own personal experience of the NHS with a long term sick parent was mainly very positive but it is far from perfect as you have demonstrated. 

I have a work colleague whose wife is German, both of their fathers are consultants. Germany has a very basic NHS type system with most people topping it up with reasonably affordable private insurance. 

The German consultant has always criticised the NHS however my colleague’s wife had premature twins a year ago who were very ill. He was astounded at the level of care that was given to them in the new Queen Elizabeth hospital, said they would never have got that attention in Germany. 

On the other hand, the private aspect in Germany means more operations and consultations are done ( to make money and reach targets)  and because of that things like cancer are identified and acted on quicker. 

Its a difficult one but I too would rather have the NHS than be reliant solely on private.  

[TDYER63]

7 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Private health services are profit-driven just like anything that includes handing money over for services. Its a service where, if you aren't well off, you'd end up prioritising which medical ailment to have treated. You'll also find that those treating you will find the slightest ailments and put a price on them to be treated from anything from a wart to a boil on the arse. No thanks. And no doubt it still involves tiered levels of service whereas the rich get premium treatment in quickest time whilst those not so well off will still need to wait. I can picture it all if it all comes to be. Gold Status £10,000 a year gets same day walk-in appointments and operations in the quickest time along with unlimited free check-ups. Silver Status £5,000 a year gets an appointment within 24 to 48 hours, operations inside two weeks and a limited amount of free check-ups. Bronze Status £1,000 a year gets an appointment with GP within a week, operations on a waiting list system and check-ups for a small additional fee.

No thanks.

I get private through my work. I use it when I need to as I feel I would rather unburden the NHS if possible whilst I have this ‘perk’ , plus I am taxed on it so may as well use it. 

I was in for a follow up appt a few months ago , was in the consultants room for 5 minutes , all he did was have a quick look at my back . The invoice came in . £250. Fckin daylight robbery. 

[thplinth]

10 hours ago, thplinth said:

How many of you have anything to compare to? 

The NHS with its long history in its favour compares badly to countries which have barely escaped communism.

I would bet that a Scot now living in Slovakia, Czech, Slovenia, Poland etc would  choose to stay in those new countries than go home to the NHS for treatment of a serious illness. Just my views...

NHS... pffft. The NHS is really poor.

 

Upon reflection this is maybe harsh. Perhaps the things I am basing this on are a local anomaly and are not representative of the wider NHS. I personally have been gradually losing confidence in the NHS for a while and the last thing that happened recently really shocked me. Can't be too specific as it happened to someone I know who died but it really made me wonder. Person was repeatedly told there was nothing wrong, in desperation taken by a relative to a well know private hospital, diagnosed correctly it turned out in one visit, immediately sent to NHS hospital with note saying what the private consultant thought it was and not to discharge the patient, refused admittance by NHS again, dead days later (after finally being admitted gravely ill). And that is just the latest thing that makes me wonder... 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Private health services are profit-driven just like anything that includes handing money over for services. Its a service where, if you aren't well off, you'd end up prioritising which medical ailment to have treated. You'll also find that those treating you will find the slightest ailments and put a price on them to be treated from anything from a wart to a boil on the arse. No thanks. And no doubt it still involves tiered levels of service whereas the rich get premium treatment in quickest time whilst those not so well off will still need to wait. I can picture it all if it all comes to be. Gold Status £10,000 a year gets same day walk-in appointments and operations in the quickest time along with unlimited free check-ups. Silver Status £5,000 a year gets an appointment within 24 to 48 hours, operations inside two weeks and a limited amount of free check-ups. Bronze Status £1,000 a year gets an appointment with GP within a week, operations on a waiting list system and check-ups for a small additional fee.

No thanks.

Dont forget they'll say our tax and NI will come down as the Government wont be funding the NHS ...... but it wont

 

[ThistleWhistle]

29 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Upon reflection this is maybe harsh. Perhaps the things I am basing this on are a local anomaly and are not representative of the wider NHS. I personally have been gradually losing confidence in the NHS for a while and the last thing that happened recently really shocked me. Can't be too specific as it happened to someone I know who died but it really made me wonder. Person was repeatedly told there was nothing wrong, in desperation taken by a relative to a well know private hospital, diagnosed correctly it turned out in one visit, immediately sent to NHS hospital with note saying what the private consultant thought it was and not to discharge the patient, refused admittance by NHS again, dead days later (after finally being admitted gravely ill). And that is just the latest thing that makes me wonder... 

I think a lot of it has to do with population overall has increased 8% from 2005 to 2015 with only increasing in funding of 1.5% between 2010-2021 (this might have changed as did an assignment on this last year).  In addition of £600billion promised for new facilities 60% was coming from selling existing infrastructure.   Another factor is compared to 1975 where 16% of the population were retired whilst 25% were yet to grow into taxpayers in 2015 under 20% were under 16 and over 20% were over 65. 

 

It is definitely a political football and personally my opinion is this is being underfunded on purpose to show it doesn’t work to encourage acceptance of it being privatised.  The other thing is people up here are definitely sheltered from what is happening down south. 

 

As an aside the assignment I did was around the impact of Wannacry – the IT infrastructure is shambolic with trusts running different systems, trusts not installing patches, trusts having systems/equipment that Windows no longer provide patches for, etc.  The IT response was to tell everyone to close down the internal communication platform but that wasn’t carrying the virus so they told everyone to log back on via email so nobody got it!!!   A bigger cyber-attack and we’d have been totally fucked.   

[Mox]

15 hours ago, thplinth said:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the NHS is a quite poor health service. Everyone thinks it is the best for the reason it is mostly free. What do you want though? The correct diagnosis or the free diagnosis. So many stories of their negligence... It would make an interesting thread if folk were asked to tell their own stories of neglect and bad practice. Recently a friend of the family went on holiday to the US and had a fall... went to the local US hospital and the doctor looking at her as an aside told her she had Crohns disease I think it was But it may have been something similar... she had been suffering from the symptoms for 20 years chronically and her NHS GP had just completely missed it. 20 Mins in a US hospital and it was indentified as an aside... IMHO the NHS is rather shit value for the money. Her GP did apologize to her though so that is ok...

That didn't happen though did it?

[Orraloon]

22 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

 

 

It is definitely a political football and personally my opinion is this is being underfunded on purpose to show it doesn’t work to encourage acceptance of it being privatised.  

 

 

It also provides another weapon to hurl at "them immigrants that just turn up and use our NHS for free, whilst us british folk can't even get an appointment". But that's probably just a lucky bi-product for the Tories and not really part of the overall plan?

 

[thplinth]

49 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I think a lot of it has to do with population overall has increased 8% from 2005 to 2015 with only increasing in funding of 1.5% between 2010-2021 (this might have changed as did an assignment on this last year).  In addition of £600billion promised for new facilities 60% was coming from selling existing infrastructure.   Another factor is compared to 1975 where 16% of the population were retired whilst 25% were yet to grow into taxpayers in 2015 under 20% were under 16 and over 20% were over 65. 

 

It is definitely a political football and personally my opinion is this is being underfunded on purpose to show it doesn’t work to encourage acceptance of it being privatised.  The other thing is people up here are definitely sheltered from what is happening down south. 

 

As an aside the assignment I did was around the impact of Wannacry – the IT infrastructure is shambolic with trusts running different systems, trusts not installing patches, trusts having systems/equipment that Windows no longer provide patches for, etc.  The IT response was to tell everyone to close down the internal communication platform but that wasn’t carrying the virus so they told everyone to log back on via email so nobody got it!!!   A bigger cyber-attack and we’d have been totally fucked.   

My dear old Dad has been saying the same for years. I don't doubt it either.

[thplinth]

37 minutes ago, Mox said:

That didn't happen though did it?

Calling me a liar now. Still classy as ever. 

Like I said I am pretty sure I got the disease wrong. The person fell over while on holiday in the states and hurt her leg and the doctor in the emergency ward told her based on her symptoms he thought she was suffering from XYZ disease. This was subsequently confirmed at home by the NHS. Her own GP apologized for missing it. It was / is quite a serious disease which she suffered with for ages prior to that. 

Quite why you would think I would make this up I have no idea but I think it says a lot more about you than me if that is how your mind works.

[ParisInAKilt]

How many diseases and illness etc are caused by lifestyle choices as well, NHS and private need people to be sick, no money in healthy people 

[ThistleWhistle]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

It also provides another weapon to hurl at "them immigrants that just turn up and use our NHS for free, whilst us british folk can't even get an appointment". But that's probably just a lucky bi-product for the Tories and not really part of the overall plan?

 

I think that is another factor too with divide & rule type feel to it as there never seems to be discussion around why funding hasn’t increased in line with population when economic migrants will be paying tax.  Reports always seem to revolve around the increase in demand rather than why this isn’t the catalyst for increased supply.    

 

We were lucky when my wife moved over that the NHS surcharge wasn’t in place but it did cost £3k-£4k for her visas (Fiancée, marriage, Indefinite leave) and passport application.  Now non-eu students have to pay a surcharge of £300 a year and on a working/marriage visa it is £400 a year.  Imagine a nurse coming over on £30k a year and brings their family – that would be £8k (2 parents and 2 dependents) over 5 years out of their budget straight off along with the visa charges on top plus PAYE/NI.  For that sort of wedge they could afford golden Bupa with complimentary bed baths!!     

 

Given taking back controls of borders seems a key decision factor for Brexit support wouldn’t be surprised if the above was extended to  include EU folk following a ‘no deal’.

[ParisInAKilt]

My ex is from New Zealand and she had to pay almost 1k up front as part of her working holiday visa for healthcare. Scandalous amount for someone under 30 who probably won’t need to access healthcare.

[bonzo]

11 hours ago, thplinth said:

Calling me a liar now. Still classy as ever. 

Like I said I am pretty sure I got the disease wrong. The person fell over while on holiday in the states and hurt her leg and the doctor in the emergency ward told her based on her symptoms he thought she was suffering from XYZ disease. This was subsequently confirmed at home by the NHS. Her own GP apologized for missing it. It was / is quite a serious disease which she suffered with for ages prior to that. 

Quite why you would think I would make this up I have no idea but I think it says a lot more about you than me if that is how your mind works.

Reading through this, can I ask a question, do you use the NHS?

[bonny78]

Can't wait for brexit