Clyde1998 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Just now, scotlad said: That's a very fair point. Maybe I'm naive but I am quite surprised by the verdict. I had half expected them to say, yes, the SG could hold a referendum but it wouldn't be legally binding without agreement with the UKG. This verdict though makes a mockery of the notion that the UK is a voluntary union. That was exactly what I was expecting. Their view was it doesn't impact on the union legally - which was my interpretation, but the political aspect was something I wasn't expecting. The argument of the UK is a voluntary union has completely died today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 I saw Councillor Graham Campbell sitting in the Supreme Court for the judgement. That chancer would turn up for the opening of an envelope if the cameras were there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 FM doing a press conference at 11-30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 9 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said: Hopefully not that far, but something like UDI after a general election suddenly becomes more viable. UDI would have the army in the streets instantly and we would be “occupied”. UdI will never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde1998 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Malcolm said: UDI would have the army in the streets instantly and we would be “occupied”. UdI will never happen. The Supreme Court just ruled occupied nations are allowed self-determination (Paragraph 89 of the judgement) 😉. Some 18-dimensional chess 🙃. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 I honestly don’t know where this leaves independence, the only thing we have, that many on here have laughed at, is the claim of right.. I am furojust now at a mixture of things, the Supreme Court, smug unionists and sturgeon who doesn’t seem to have a plan, let’s see what she says at 11.30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 14 minutes ago, aaid said: FM doing a press conference at 11-30 May be a statement rather than a PC. UQ in the HoC following PMQs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 9 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said: I honestly don’t know where this leaves independence, the only thing we have, that many on here have laughed at, is the claim of right.. I am furojust now at a mixture of things, the Supreme Court, smug unionists and sturgeon who doesn’t seem to have a plan, let’s see what she says at 11.30. Explain to me how the Claim of Right works then? Don’t worry, this is a rhetorical question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Do we really want a referendum when theres a good chance we lose it anyway? Use this verdict to ramp up pressure on westminster to grant one in a few years time with the rhetoric that we are not in a voluntary union as proven today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: Do we really want a referendum when theres a good chance we lose it anyway? Use this verdict to ramp up pressure on westminster to grant one in a few years time with the rhetoric that we are not in a voluntary union as proven today. I see where you are coming from but we have to take ANY chance if and when it comes. I stand by what I have said before - even if IndyRef2 was voted against you will still have a huge amount of people who support it. The question will not go away and the unionists have no way of quelling the independence movement. The only way the independence movement and calls for referendums will die is if support for independence shrunk back to the levels of the 1950s and 60s which ain't happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bzzzz Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 25 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said: Do we really want a referendum when theres a good chance we lose it anyway? Use this verdict to ramp up pressure on westminster to grant one in a few years time with the rhetoric that we are not in a voluntary union as proven today. I'm surprised you think there's "a good chance" we will lose, given the absolute erse the "UK" has turned in to since 2014, I think the reason the yoons are so desperately standing against even entertaining a referendum is they know there's a damn good chance they will lose. I agree with second part, we need to batter them into submission and not in a nice way. Sick to death of this "please can we have a referendum pretty please" pish. Got to say I thought the argument for in this case at the supreme court was pathetic, total lack of baws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaughey85 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Bzzzz said: I'm surprised you think there's "a good chance" we will lose, given the absolute erse the "UK" has turned in to since 2014, I think the reason the yoons are so desperately standing against even entertaining a referendum is they know there's a damn good chance they will lose. I agree with second part, we need to batter them into submission and not in a nice way. Sick to death of this "please can we have a referendum pretty please" pish. Got to say I thought the argument for in this case at the supreme court was pathetic, total lack of baws. Just look at the polling for the last year. Most have a slight lead for the union. In my opinion its probably near 50/50 which isnt great reading considering the mess the uks been in with tory leaders and the energy costs etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 My worries about defacto referendum is that I have no doubt it will be 'boycotted' by all of the unionist parties so as to totally negate the strength of any positive result. Just watching PM's QT and it is clearly evident Westminster does not believe Scotland should have a democratic say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcguffin Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) Listened to "Prime Minister's Questions" on LBC radio. Heard Ian Blackford's question about the Supreme Court's decision. Paraphrasing: "Can the Right Honourable gentlemen confirm that the notion of the United Kingdom being a voluntary union of nations is complete b*llocks?" Rishi Sunak replied with Boris-Johnson-style waffle (an answer to the question might have buried in there somewhere?) But the interesting thing for me was when they cut back to the studio where James O'Brien and political analyst Theo Usherwood discussed PMQs: they didn't mention Blackford's question. Or the supreme court decision. (At least up to the newsbreak when I switched off). Whatever side of the Indy debate someone might be on, it's a bit of a slap in the collective face of Scotland that even Westminster analysts and well-known centre-left presenters can't be *rsed even discussing Scotland-related WM parliamentary matters? Edited November 23, 2022 by mcguffin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDYER63 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 It beggars belief there is still anyone out there that still sees the UK as a partnership of equals. I can only assume that people who have no doubts at all about remaining in the UK are either devoted unionists or are so scared of going alone they are quite prepared to put up with continuous slap downs . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 54 minutes ago, mcguffin said: Listened to "Prime Minister's Questions" on LBC radio. Heard Ian Blackford's question about the Supreme Court's decision. Paraphrasing: "Can the Right Honourable gentlemen confirm that the notion of the United Kingdom being a voluntary union of nations is complete b*llocks?" Rishi Sunak replied with Boris-Johnson-style waffle (an answer to the question might have buried in there somewhere?) But the interesting thing for me was when they cut back to the studio where James O'Brien and political analyst Theo Usherwood discussed PMQs: they didn't mention Blackford's question. Or the supreme court decision. (At least up to the newsbreak when I switched off). Whatever side of the Indy debate someone might be on, it's a bit of a slap in the collective face of Scotland that even Westminster analysts and well-known centre-left presenters can't be *rsed even discussing Scotland-related WM parliamentary matters? He covered it earlier by the look of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 In the narrow terms of its remit, the devolution settlement, and constitutional affairs reserved, and the Supremet Court being what it is, it seems completely natural that they'd say an indyref was unconstitutional without WM consent. If anything the problem was sewn in the Blair Government that set up devolution and Supreme Court this way. One suggestion that caught my eye is: what if all SNP MPs resigned and had a sort of national by election? That would be a de facto referendum. The unionists would not boycott the chance to get their own MPs into their beloved westminster. And it would avoid the problem of a GE or Holyrood election in which people would be distracted by trying to kick out the Tories, or the best party to run Scotland. It wouldn't be about kicking out the Tories because Scotland couldn't kick them out, however we cvote, and the election would be a living testimopny of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint4805 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) Surely Sturgeon's best hope is for a hung Parliament at the 2024 general election and for Labour to rely on the SNP to form an alliance to oust the Tories. Starmer will always rule out a coalition but he may not have a choice if forming an alliance is his only hope of kicking out the Tories. Edited November 23, 2022 by Saint4805 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, exile said: In the narrow terms of its remit, the devolution settlement, and constitutional affairs reserved, and the Supremet Court being what it is, it seems completely natural that they'd say an indyref was unconstitutional without WM consent. If anything the problem was sewn in the Blair Government that set up devolution and Supreme Court this way. Absolutely this. Scotland was done up like a kipper in 1998. A Bill was created by unionists and constructed to make it certain Scots alone could not have a say on the union. A route the SG should maybe consider going down is creation of a new and fairer Scotland Bill which mirrors wording used in the 2014 Scotland Act which stated Scotland, at any time, if the call and need is there to hold another independence referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 4 minutes ago, Saint4805 said: Surely Sturgeon's best hope is for a hung Parliament at the 2024 general election and for Labour to rely on the SNP to form an alliance to oust the Tories. Starmer will always rule out a coalition but he may not have a choice if it's his only hope of kicking out the Tories. I don’t think starmer will throw the union under the bus for a term in office. And that’s all it would be. One term. England would be Tory for ever more. Suicide for labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Malcolm said: I don’t think starmer will throw the union under the bus for a term in office. And that’s all it would be. One term. England would be Tory for ever more. Suicide for labour. It didn't do the Tories any harm in 2014 (still in power today). It almost sounds like you feel IndyRef2 will result in a Yes vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint4805 Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Malcolm said: I don’t think starmer will throw the union under the bus for a term in office. And that’s all it would be. One term. England would be Tory for ever more. Suicide for labour. If Labour can't beat the Tories at the next election given all that has happened then Starmer would have to step down anyway and it may be Tory England for ever more regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said: It didn't do the Tories any harm in 2014 (still in power today). It almost sounds like you feel IndyRef2 will result in a Yes vote. I think there is an outside chance. Opinion polls are almost 50:50 but I think it’s more likely to be no. Either way, too big a risk for Labour or the tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcguffin Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 28 minutes ago, aaid said: He covered it earlier by the look of this. My goodness this is strong stuff from James O'Brien. Thanks Aaid!!! (Lesson learnt for me: don't jump to conclusions based on 20 mins of a radio talk show ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertsscot Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 I actually think that it's better to have had a clear cut judgement rather than the SC kicking the proverbial can down the road. People in Scotland need to be clear that any pretence that the UK is a voluntary union has died today. It also means that democracy is dead in Scotland as no matter how we vote it can be ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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