Mox Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 I was recently reading a book by Jonathan Wilson in which he mentioned that although the game its self was probably started in England, the game as we know it today was invented up here i.e the invention of the passing game as opposed to the primitive game the English were playing. Having read a wee bit further there does seem to be some debate as to the exact origins and seems to be a school of thought that the game started up here, anyone got anything that could shed any further light? In addition, I read a book about Seville and Real Betis recently and the number of Scottish folk that started and were involved in setting up a number of Spanish clubs is phenomenal, why don't we make more of that? Or do we and have I missed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan_McCole Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Not Scottish, but I'm sure AC Milan were founded by a couple of English geezers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Alexander Watson Hutton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 I’ve read a fair bit on this over the years & I don’t think you can really say either of us invented it as such. The game evolved in various ways, & those developments came from all over. In terms of unifying rules & creating a structure, then you probably are looking at English public schools, but that wasn’t about inventing the game but rather codifying it in a way that they could compete with each other. Professionalisation & the first key technical developments in the game almost certainly originated in Scotland. At least, Fergus Suter was the first known & semi-legitimate professional. The passing game you mention almost certainly originated in Scotland. The whole notion of professional sport is linked into lots of other sociological/social history developments at the time. In terms of league competitions, these were started in England, but by a Scot. So, much like the first international game, perhaps best to call it a draw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandydunn Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) There’s a sign up in pittodrie that says something about the first recorded passing rules or something like that was from up here. I’ll try and dig it out, I’ve a photo somewhere. Doesn’t prove anything though 😂 Edited May 28, 2020 by dandydunn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandydunn Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolling hIlls Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 16 minutes ago, dandydunn said: Aye. I could have done that. Were the 2 stars there at that time as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 Match report from 500 years ago... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-15348386 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandydunn Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Rolling hIlls said: Aye. I could have done that. Were the 2 stars there at that time as well? You didn’t read everything I said, did you? Fucktard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich NATA Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 4 hours ago, Tartan_McCole said: Not Scottish, but I'm sure AC Milan were founded by a couple of English geezers. That's true. Hence the St George Cross still seen on the AC Milan badge to this day. Seemingly, a Scot who had played for Southampton introduced football to Brazil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 28 minutes ago, Rich NATA said: Seemingly, a Scot who had played for Southampton introduced football to Brazil. Did they sign him from Celtic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Rich NATA said: Seemingly, a Scot who had played for Southampton introduced football to Brazil. The original Charlie Miller... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_William_Miller Archie McLean from Paisley, another pioneer of the Brazilian game... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_McLean_(footballer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Jim Posted May 28, 2020 Share Posted May 28, 2020 4 hours ago, Toepoke said: The original Charlie Miller... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_William_Miller Archie McLean from Paisley, another pioneer of the Brazilian game... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_McLean_(footballer) Always wondered why we were called The Paisley Brazilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Cutler Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 IIRC on an early version of the TAMB, there was a poster called Sonny who had done a lot of research. He found Callander had a significant part to play in where football was 1st played. There was some good reading back in the early days of the TAMB, before it became a watered down club forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted May 29, 2020 Author Share Posted May 29, 2020 On 5/28/2020 at 11:02 AM, Huddersfield said: I’ve read a fair bit on this over the years & I don’t think you can really say either of us invented it as such. The game evolved in various ways, & those developments came from all over. In terms of unifying rules & creating a structure, then you probably are looking at English public schools, but that wasn’t about inventing the game but rather codifying it in a way that they could compete with each other. Professionalisation & the first key technical developments in the game almost certainly originated in Scotland. At least, Fergus Suter was the first known & semi-legitimate professional. The passing game you mention almost certainly originated in Scotland. The whole notion of professional sport is linked into lots of other sociological/social history developments at the time. In terms of league competitions, these were started in England, but by a Scot. So, much like the first international game, perhaps best to call it a draw! I think you're probably right. It's interesting though that England make much more of it than we do and quite right as well. I found out today for example that the Scottish guy who founded Sevilla is buried in Cathcart Cemetery which is 10 mins from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 (edited) The “english game” on Amazon is not bad at dramatizing some of early games / styles etc or was it netflix ? Edited May 29, 2020 by Auchinyell Sox Change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 8 minutes ago, Mox said: I think you're probably right. It's interesting though that England make much more of it than we do and quite right as well. I found out today for example that the Scottish guy who founded Sevilla is buried in Cathcart Cemetery which is 10 mins from me. Willie Maley and Stan Laurel's mother are also buried in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 Interesting watching Scotland v Sweden from 1990 tonight. Archie McPherson talking about how Scots had introduced the sport to the Swedes, and suggesting the match was "master v pupil". Even in the late 20th century there was still that attitude that this was our game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan II Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 5 hours ago, Toepoke said: Interesting watching Scotland v Sweden from 1990 tonight. Archie McPherson talking about how Scots had introduced the sport to the Swedes, and suggesting the match was "master v pupil". Even in the late 20th century there was still that attitude that this was our game. I found it a hard watch due to his now known about unionism. But maybe that’s just me! Also can’t understand reason why McStay didn’t get more caps. So assured and good at keeping possession when he came on. Looked like a proper footballer. Didn’t appreciate him so much when I was younger (I wasn’t even that young). But he was kinda like Barry Ferguson but with more forward impetus. Anyway, he wasn’t on for long in this game but it sparked a memory. Maestro indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 2 hours ago, duncan II said: I found it a hard watch due to his now known about unionism. But maybe that’s just me! Also can’t understand reason why McStay didn’t get more caps. So assured and good at keeping possession when he came on. Looked like a proper footballer. Didn’t appreciate him so much when I was younger (I wasn’t even that young). But he was kinda like Barry Ferguson but with more forward impetus. Anyway, he wasn’t on for long in this game but it sparked a memory. Maestro indeed. Only the fifth most capped player ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan II Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 10 minutes ago, Orraloon said: Only the fifth most capped player ever. Fair enough. Never realised that. What I should have said, surprised he never played a more prominent role. I remember a cracking goal v Iceland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolling hIlls Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 21 minutes ago, Orraloon said: Only the fifth most capped player ever. Aye, strange question from Duncan. McStay was a great player. My best experience ever at a Scotland game that day. Genoa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolling hIlls Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 Think Duncan may have been talking about Bob McStay who played with Burntisland Shipyard. He was a decent drawback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolling hIlls Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 The Paul McStay, Duncan is talking about only got 76 caps. Murder aye!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted May 30, 2020 Share Posted May 30, 2020 3 hours ago, Rolling hIlls said: Aye, strange question from Duncan. McStay was a great player. My best experience ever at a Scotland game that day. Genoa. Fantastic player, really should have gone to play in Serie A when he had the chance. He must regret that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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