Mox Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Are saying ALL of them have train tickets to Germany ? How do you know that ? Anyway, that's irrelevant to the point that Hungary...their first stop in the EU....is safe and relatively prosperous. It would seem obvious that many of these 'refugees' are not actually 'refugees', desperate (understandably) for safety. They're demanding to be allowed into more prosperous western Europe. Does Europe have a moral obligation to care for genuine refugees fleeing war ? Yes, of course. Does Europe have a moral obligation to care for people who simply want the 'better life' that they feel the nirvana of western Europe offers ? No, I don't believe it does. How do you know many of them of are not refugees? The reason they want to go to Germany is because Germany has publicly said they will accept them and house them. At the moment they are in Hungary, a country (although correct me if I am wrong) that currently has a prime minister who leads an anti immigration party. Would you want to stay in a country that actively does not want you there? In addition, many will already have family and friends in Germany who will be telling them the benefits of it and compared to Hungary it probably sounds like some sort of Utopia. Two other things, as you said above, you don't believe many are refugees. What do you believe they are then? People who will just come and spoke off benefits, terrorists? I just find your attitude a little surprising as you have always come across as reasonably left wing on here when it comes to these issues. Secondly, As i mentioned before, surely Europe does owe these people something. We as a continent have taking advantage of them and their forefathers for years, do we not owe them asylum and probably an apology? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewelk Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Who the fk is looking down on them and why would you compare it to my 2nd language skills. Too many on here see any opinion as anti immigration. Read the statement again and my response. He stated the people the English reporter spoke to had a decent grasp of the English language. That is something I agreed with. However, if he spoke to most others, they wouldn't speak a word of our language. Nothing racist, nothing anti immigration. It wasn't really meant to be directed at you specifically. More a comment on the general British attitude to these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewelk Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I think life in Syria for a lot of these guys was probably quite nice before the west started meddling (or whoever started rocking that boat, I still don't really get it). There's a tendency to think that they've come straight from their caves and feel entitled to a job in Germany but actually a lot of them are people like me and you. Try to imagine yourself or your family in that situation because that's what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalgety Bay TA Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Are saying ALL of them have train tickets to Germany ? How do you know that ? Anyway, that's irrelevant to the point that Hungary...their first stop in the EU....is safe and relatively prosperous. It would seem obvious that many of these 'refugees' are not actually 'refugees', desperate (understandably) for safety. They're demanding to be allowed into more prosperous western Europe. Does Europe have a moral obligation to care for genuine refugees fleeing war ? Yes, of course. Does Europe have a moral obligation to care for people who simply want the 'better life' that they feel the nirvana of western Europe offers ? No, I don't believe it does. The report I watched said lots had train tickets for Germany. Maybe they were the ones doing the chanting? How do you know they are not genuine refugees? How do you know what they want and feel? You have no real knowledge of why they want to go to Germany. It feels like you are basing your opinions of them on the stereotype of the "typical immigrants" as spouted by the Mail/Express etc but I don't think that is your normal way of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalgety Bay TA Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I think life in Syria for a lot of these guys was probably quite nice before the west started meddling (or whoever started rocking that boat, I still don't really get it). There's a tendency to think that they've come straight from their caves and feel entitled to a job in Germany but actually a lot of them are people like me and you. Try to imagine yourself or your family in that situation because that's what it is. BBC news had a report on lass going from Syria to Sweden. Young, pretty, well dressed, nice make up etc. She, and the handful with her, had some money, weren't urgently trying to jump from country to country, took her two, weeks, stayed over in Belgrade, walked 10 miles across Serbian border in middle of night, stayed with friends in Vienna a few days, cost £3k in total to get to Sweden. Not your stereotypical refugee but if people of that sort are needing and willing to flee their country it says a lot about the situation they are leaving behind IMO. They were the lucky ones, they got out relatively unscathed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 I was surprised at the number of countries the refugees are coming from this year. For example I didn't even know there was a war in Kosovo just now http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-six-charts-that-show-where-refugees-are-coming-from-where-they-are-going-and-how-they-are-getting-to-europe-10482415.html Eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 ? I just find your attitude a little surprising as you have always come across as reasonably left wing on here when it comes to these issues. It feels like you are basing your opinions of them on the stereotype of the "typical immigrants" as spouted by the Mail/Express etc but I don't think that is your normal way of thinking. My way of thinking certainly hasn't changed, that's for sure. I'm not coming all over Daily Mail (anyone who knows me knows my opinion on rags like that)......I'm simply reticent to give a "come one, come all" answer. It unfortunately can't be as simple as that. As I said in my first post, I honestly have no idea what should be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Glad to see this thread knocking " wedding favours" down a few Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Are saying ALL of them have train tickets to Germany ? How do you know that ? Anyway, that's irrelevant to the point that Hungary...their first stop in the EU....is safe and relatively prosperous. It would seem obvious that many of these 'refugees' are not actually 'refugees', desperate (understandably) for safety. They're demanding to be allowed into more prosperous western Europe. Does Europe have a moral obligation to care for genuine refugees fleeing war ? Yes, of course. Does Europe have a moral obligation to care for people who simply want the 'better life' that they feel the nirvana of western Europe offers ? No, I don't believe it does. Totally agree, this isn't simply a refugee crisis a large proportion of it is an economic migration crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 BBC news had a report on lass going from Syria to Sweden. Young, pretty, well dressed, nice make up etc. She, and the handful with her, had some money, weren't urgently trying to jump from country to country, took her two, weeks, stayed over in Belgrade, walked 10 miles across Serbian border in middle of night, stayed with friends in Vienna a few days, cost £3k in total to get to Sweden. Not your stereotypical refugee but if people of that sort are needing and willing to flee their country it says a lot about the situation they are leaving behind IMO. They were the lucky ones, they got out relatively unscathed. As I mentioned in one of the earlier pages, I listened to something the other day that said a lot of these people are 'middle class' syrians who can afford to pay traffickers etc and as such are well educated and had good jobs etc back in Syria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Totally agree, this isn't simply a refugee crisis a large proportion of it is an economic migration crisis. haha. What are you basing this on? There may well be the odd economic migrant, but the vas, vast majority are fleeing a war and a war torn region that we are responsible for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 haha. What are you basing this on? There may well be the odd economic migrant, but the vas, vast majority are fleeing a war and a war torn region that we are responsible for. Even if that is the case, it doesn't explain why those 'fleeing a war and war torn region' are ignoring the sanctuary of Turkey, Greece, Macedonia and Hungary....all peaceful countries.....and are demanding to reach Austria and Germany (and presumably points further west). At some point, there has to be a place and time where the authorities (whoever they are) properly document these refugees and assess who they are and their reasons for wanting asylum in the west. That point can't be once thousands of immigrants are dispersed throughout western Europe.....it has to take place in holding camps in places like Greece and Hungary. An open door policy is simply unthinkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Even if that is the case, it doesn't explain why those 'fleeing a war and war torn region' are ignoring the sanctuary of Turkey, Greece, Macedonia and Hungary....all peaceful countries.....and are demanding to reach Austria and Germany (and presumably points further west). At some point, there has to be a place and time where the authorities (whoever they are) properly document these refugees and assess who they are and their reasons for wanting asylum in the west. That point can't be once thousands of immigrants are dispersed throughout western Europe.....it has to take place in holding camps in places like Greece and Hungary. An open door policy is simply unthinkable. Something wrong here, I'm not in Georgia and I'm agreeing with Rossy. Have I strayed into a parallel universe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringo Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Something wrong here, I'm not in Georgia and I'm agreeing with Rossy. Have I strayed into a parallel universe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 haha. What are you basing this on? There may well be the odd economic migrant, but the vas, vast majority are fleeing a war and a war torn region that we are responsible for. What are you basing your assertion on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 What are you basing your assertion on? On what I am seeing on the news and the reports I am reading in the newspaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wibble Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Totally agree, this isn't simply a refugee crisis a large proportion of it is an economic migration crisis. And there we have it. Bandwagon(sic) jumpers on trains etc using the plight of others' to 'jump the queue' of seeking a better life. The Beeb - which everyone knows is right-wing has just reported on the travellers who don't emanate from war-torn countries taking advantage of the mayhem currently ensuing - and who can blame them? The system is fuqqqed - I'm not blaming the opportunists - but the UK can't fix it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wibble Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Something wrong here, I'm not in Georgia and I'm agreeing with Rossy. Have I strayed into a parallel universe? No - you're just pissed again. (Like we did last summer...). Edited September 3, 2015 by Wibble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wibble Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 According to the BBC - a prog on shitters - 2.6 Billion folk don't have access to an efficient crapper. Think on... yes. I'm using scare tactics to turn everyone against people coming 'here' to poo in our country!! I'm cancelling my day pass tae Portobello Pool until this shite is sorted out! Hrmph! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 No - you're just pissed again. (Like we did last summer...). Oh . This parallel universe has Pistonbrokes brother in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wibble Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Oh . This parallel universe has Pistonbrokes brother in it. His slimmer, more handsome and younger bro - man. Love gettin' 'down wiv da kids!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andymac Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 His slimmer, more handsome and younger bro - man. Love gettin' 'down wiv da kids!' Operation Yewtree coming your way...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Even if that is the case, it doesn't explain why those 'fleeing a war and war torn region' are ignoring the sanctuary of Turkey, Greece, Macedonia and Hungary....all peaceful countries.....and are demanding to reach Austria and Germany (and presumably points further west). At some point, there has to be a place and time where the authorities (whoever they are) properly document these refugees and assess who they are and their reasons for wanting asylum in the west. That point can't be once thousands of immigrants are dispersed throughout western Europe.....it has to take place in holding camps in places like Greece and Hungary. An open door policy is simply unthinkable. Apparently the countries that immediately border Syria - Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey - have taken in most of the refugees. What I'd like to know is why some of the very wealthy states in the middle east, such UAE and Saudi Arabia, aren't doing more to help. I understand your point though: if your sole aim is to reach a safe place then the second you set foot on European soil you have won a watch. It could be though that Syrians who have arrived in Europe are keener to go to places that have existing Syrian communities, like Austria and Germany, so have paid through the nose to get there. As for how the UK should respond, I don't see why they can't treat Syrians the same as they did Kosovan refugees, and at least issue them with temporary refugee status until the situation has calmed down to a point where it is safe for them to return. Most of the Kosovans who came to the UK in the late '90s/early '00s have now returned to Kosovo. Unless, that is, unlike Kosovo, the UK government doesn't envisage the situation in Syria resolving any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I think life in Syria for a lot of these guys was probably quite nice before the west started meddling (or whoever started rocking that boat, I still don't really get it). There's a tendency to think that they've come straight from their caves and feel entitled to a job in Germany but actually a lot of them are people like me and you. Try to imagine yourself or your family in that situation because that's what it is. Exactly a lot of these folk are people who had a good life where they were until shit hit the fan. They didn't want to be in this situation but are maybe well off enough to be able to afford a ticket where they want to go under the circumstances. Germany are welcoming people as other countries should. The UK and USA are a huge part of why this is happening so in reality we need to be responsible and reasonable and take people on. It is a disgrace in this day and age. It should never have taken that boy washing up on the beach to really kick start these discussions as it has been happening for years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Apparently the countries that immediately border Syria - Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey - have taken in most of the refugees. What I'd like to know is why some of the very wealthy states in the middle east, such UAE and Saudi Arabia, aren't doing more to help. I understand your point though: if your sole aim is to reach a safe place then the second you set foot on European soil you have won a watch. It could be though that Syrians who have arrived in Europe are keener to go to places that have existing Syrian communities, like Austria and Germany, so have paid through the nose to get there. As for how the UK should respond, I don't see why they can't treat Syrians the same as they did Kosovan refugees, and at least issue them with temporary refugee status until the situation has calmed down to a point where it is safe for them to return. Most of the Kosovans who came to the UK in the late '90s/early '00s have now returned to Kosovo. Unless, that is, unlike Kosovo, the UK government doesn't envisage the situation in Syria resolving any time soon. Exactly a lot of these folk are people who had a good life where they were until shit hit the fan. They didn't want to be in this situation but are maybe well off enough to be able to afford a ticket where they want to go under the circumstances. Germany are welcoming people as other countries should. The UK and USA are a huge part of why this is happening so in reality we need to be responsible and reasonable and take people on. It is a disgrace in this day and age. It should never have taken that boy washing up on the beach to really kick start these discussions as it has been happening for years now. Both good points. But how should Europe handle the logistics of it ? We simply can't allow mass uncontrolled immigration into the EU....that would start a time-bomb ticking for decades to come. No State the world over can simply allow people to come into their country, undocumented and unregulated. The immediate solution would seem to be holding camps at their point of entry into the EU.....documentation checks, and possible temporary refugee status. The EU has a duty of care to genuine refugees, and it can provide that. It does not though (IMHO) have a duty to give people the better life they're demanding by getting on trains and chanting 'Germany, Germany'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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