Independence Referendum: Take Ii

[giblet]

Dont agree with the term "white settlers", however it cant be denied that the 500k born south of the border voting, did vote heavily against independence, this as 10% of the vote gave No camp a distinct advantage.

The amount of times vox pops on the street or indeed speakers at the televised debates had English accents was noticeable.

[Armchair Bob]

Number 5 could happen if the SNP are in a collation deal with Labour - because they would be in the Government - and would be able to see internal documents.

If there were such documents - which I doubt but you never know - I can't see the deep state ever granting access to the SNP, even if they were in government. Which they won't be.

Let's face it, the extent so far of proven security service involvement in perverting democracy in Scotland amounts to persuading some hot headed young fellows to blow up a letter box with EIIR on it in the 1950s. Northern Ireland in the 1970s this ain't (thank feck.)

Edited March 9, 2015 by Armchair Bob

[giblet]

If Labour get into power without a majority they can easily simply dare the SNP to vote against them and cause another election. Ultimately the SNP cant bring down a Labour government as this would open up the Tartan Tories angle once again. Only a Tory Tory/UKIP/Ulster Unionists government will give the SNP the ammo for another referendum post a majority win in the next Scottish government elections (If they go into that poll saying they will call another referendum).

[aaid]

If Labour get into power without a majority they can easily simply dare the SNP to vote against them and cause another election. Ultimately the SNP cant bring down a Labour government as this would open up the Tartan Tories angle once again. Only a Tory Tory/UKIP/Ulster Unionists government will give the SNP the ammo for another referendum post a majority win in the next Scottish government elections (If they go into that poll saying they will call another referendum).

Fixed term parliaments now.

[giblet]

If there is a vote of confidence in the government then elections can be called early surely?

[Orraloon]

Fixed term parliaments now.

That can be changed if the next government decide to change it.

[Haggis_trap]

Currency was THE big issue...

It created to much uncertainty.
Next time we should (IMHO) try to negotiate entry to the euro in advance.
Or at very least have a firm detailed plan in place ?

Having said that I think that the independence campaign should, where possible, be generally politically neutral in terms of policy ?
Voting YES is fundamentally about self determination.

The concept of independence needs to appeal to as wide a range of people as possible.

Not just SNP or left wing minded voters.....

As unlikely as it might sound we want to be in a position where even a % of "Scottish tories" think that voting YES is a good idea ?

Edited March 9, 2015 by Haggis_trap

[scotlad]

For me, the failure to properly target the 'grey vote' was a big mistake. The youngsters were always going to be up for inde, and to its credit the Yes campaign 'won' the social media battle convincingly. But there was, and still is, a generation out there who aren't online, who still get all their news and information from TV, newspapers and radio - and who always turn out to vote.

From a purely political point of view if nothing else, the whole currency idea was a poor one - it gave the No side something they could say No to. It is also debatable how independent we would have been if our economy was tied to a currency union with rUK. Some work needs to be done to look into the feasibility of an independent Scottish currency.

Then there was the Salmond factor. Salmond was as much a hindrance as he was an asset. The Nos recognised he was a divisive figure and so they turned him into the bogeyman. Everything became about him and the policies of his party, when really independence was never really about him or the SNP.

The good thing, the thing that the pro-independence side have in their favour, is that the concept of independence is no longer quite as radical or as scary as it was two years ago. The idea is sort of hanging there and people have grown accustomed to it, including, I think, some people who voted No.

[Stapes]

^ Well said. Sorry, that was for Wine Bibber.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Stapes

[ParisInAKilt]

It's a mainstream alternative that only needs to win once . . . .

[exile]

I think the pro-independence side need to have much more influence in other parts of the world. Too often it seems as if London was the gatekeeper to international opinion and institutions. And too often they had the ‘foreign power’ sewn up to be anti-separation or at least keep schtum. Whereas in international diplomacy, foreign powers should be at least partly open to seeing a rival state broken up (replaced by 2 equally friendly states) as they are to kow tow to the present incumbent in no. 10.

This could mean getting influence in EU to use as some sort of leverage – if EU wish to persuade UK to stay in, then they might be able to talk constructively with Scottish Govt and not simply blank us or have Barroso-like bluster feeding the unionist London media.

Also in England – there was very little about the referendum… only very late in the day and mostly hostile, kneejerk reaction to feeling rejected. (Our impression of England is in danger of being disproportionately of rabid Daily Mail readers but even DM readers are quite normal reasonable people in real life, just as with cybernats). The rUK was largely uneducated and unprepared for the break-up. They only heard 'it's over' and responded with 'no way'. To date the only thing a UK PM could think about the issue is to be fearful of having to explain to a rabid public and a non purring monarch how they ‘lost’ Scotland. But if public opinion in rUK were more sympathetic to ‘amicable decoupling’ as a mature friendly way of handling our relations 'together on these islands' then there would be fewer alarm bells from south of the border, including family ties and businesses so that when people in Scotland spoke to people down south they'd hear back something more constructive than 'don't go, don't become foreigners, business as usual will cease'.

Ironically rather than making Scotland seem like a strange alien socialist fearful place it could be painted as turning into on independence day, Scotland needs to project itself more as the kind of country the rUK would like to be. A nation at ease with itself – not a divisive place – and at ease with rUK. Something maybe for a Sturgeon than a Salmond (Ironically, because in some ways the case for independence was – maybe has to be – based on tangible difference from rUK, but there’s also a case for making it seem not such a different place)

Which brings a final point.

I imagine a second referendum would be some way off – not a re-run of last year’s arguments - but in which a new political generation had grown up in which being pro-independence became a normal stance for roughly half the population with normal balance reflected through society and media. Where TV presenters were sons and daughters of Scottish Socialist politicians, Green party donors, and holidayed with SNP first ministers, not just Labour ones. Where traditionally unionist-by-default organisations like Scottish Labour, Daily Record, and trades unions would become loosened from their Unionist default setting. For that to happen only requires time and the new generation of voters settling in.

What would endanger that, arguably, would be a 'lurch to the left'. While independence might make the prospect of a Sillars or Sheridan style socialist utopia closer, the reverse is unlikely to work: the prospect of a Sillars or Sheridan style socialist utopia is not likely to push the 45 up to or beyond 55. (Even if we’d like it to). Voters for independence would need to be coming from all walks of life - from Shetland to Dumfriesshire, and those in Edinburgh investment banks as well as North Lanarkshire food banks.

Edited March 10, 2015 by exile

[Auld_Reekie]

This could mean getting influence in EU to use as some sort of leverage – if EU wish to persuade UK to stay in, then they might be able to talk constructively with Scottish Govt and not simply blank us or have Barroso-like bluster feeding the unionist London media.

On the EU, I'm looking toward Catalonia as a country who could help lead the way. We weren't in a strong enough position to force an EU intervention but if somewhere like Catalonia could succeed with an independence vote and be seen to be accepted, it would nullify that angle IMO.

Other than that, I don't think it was as big an issue as some made out. Salmond's f*** up about legal advice was very damaging though I think. I think currency would trump EU membership for most people.

That said, an in-out referendum on the EU could cause some waves. Will be interesting to see how that changes the dynamic. One thing is for sure - a vote to leave means independence is inevitable.

[exile]

i agree the EU on its own was not a deal-breaker.

But there was a sense that Scotland was isolated in the big bad world of international politics - the whole world outside Salmond Scotland seemed to give the message 'stay together', standing shoulder to shoulder with DC, orchestrated by Downing St/Whitehall.

It would be a different kettle of fish if the EU said 'we wish as many of our citizens as possible to stay with us, and if that means recognising an independent Scotland as holder of the UK's membership while rUK secedes, then that's fine with us'.

What role do the SNP MEPs play as unofficial ambassadors to the EU?

[thorbotnic]

On the EU, I'm looking toward Catalonia as a country who could help lead the way. We weren't in a strong enough position to force an EU intervention but if somewhere like Catalonia could succeed with an independence vote and be seen to be accepted, it would nullify that angle IMO.

Other than that, I don't think it was as big an issue as some made out. Salmond's f*** up about legal advice was very damaging though I think. I think currency would trump EU membership for most people.

That said, an in-out referendum on the EU could cause some waves. Will be interesting to see how that changes the dynamic. One thing is for sure - a vote to leave means independence is inevitable.

Only if Scotland votes differently from rUK...

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

I've yet to see any mention of sorting out the sectarian issues at play before another vote

Or is this considered small potatoes and can be dealt with as part of housekeeping duties as part of a modern independent country

[Flure]

Dont agree with the term "white settlers", however it cant be denied that the 500k born south of the border voting, did vote heavily against independence, this as 10% of the vote gave No camp a distinct advantage.

The amount of times vox pops on the street or indeed speakers at the televised debates had English accents was noticeable.

And this matters, how?

The referendum was simply asking the people who live in Scotland how they would like to be governed.

ALL of the people who lived in Scotland.

[ParisInAKilt]

I've yet to see any mention of sorting out the sectarian issues at play before another vote

Or is this considered small potatoes and can be dealt with as part of housekeeping duties as part of a modern independent country

Away from the football is sectarianism really a problem in day to day life in Scotland?

[ParisInAKilt]

And this matters, how?

The referendum was simply asking the people who live in Scotland how they would like to be governed.

ALL of the people who lived in Scotland.

Agreed.

Although it's an interesting point when someone goes down the argument of calling yes voters anti english.

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

Away from the football is sectarianism really a problem in day to day life in Scotland?

talking to a mate on friday night about it ; he moved from Glasgow area around 7 years back , and was mentioning the schools issue

maybe is no big deal ; got the impression from him though it was

[ErsatzThistle]

talking to a mate on friday night about it ; he moved from Glasgow area around 7 years back , and was mentioning the schools issue

maybe is no big deal ; got the impression from him though it was

Probably says more about your mate if he's obsessed with Catholic schools. Is he fine with hate filled Orange Order parades and the genuine trouble they bring or are they just harmless fun to him ?

I'm a secularist who ultimately wants all religion removed from our schools out of principle, so in the long term I do want to see an end to religious schooling. However in my experience I've never found separate schooling to be a cause of sectarianism.

I went to a non-denom school and had a number of friends who went to RC schools and it never drove a wedge between us. With hindsight I actually wish I could have went to the local RC high school as there were a lot less fecking neds there.

Black kids and white kids go to school together and racism still occurs. Girls and boys go to school together and sexism still occurs. Catholic and Protestant can go to school together and sectarianism can still occur.

Nine times out of ten, sectarianism, racism and homophobia will start in the home under the influence of parents and siblings. This is what people don't want to confront. It's much easier to just blame "them" and "their schools" than face the fact that Mum and Dad are a pair of nasty bigots.

It's interesting to note that many of those who want rid of RC schools don't have any problem with some ostensibly Non-Denom schools that routinely waste pupils time with prayer assemblies and hymn practice.

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

Probably says more about your mate if he's obsessed with Catholic schools. Is he fine with hate filled Orange Order parades and the genuine trouble they bring or are they just harmless fun to him ?

I'm a secularist who ultimately wants all religion removed from our schools out of principle, so in the long term I do want to see an end to religious schooling. However in my experience I've never found separate schooling to be a cause of sectarianism.

I went to a non-denom school and had a number of friends who went to RC schools and it never drove a wedge between us. With hindsight I actually wish I could have went to the local RC high school as there were a lot less fecking neds there.

Black kids and white kids go to school together and racism still occurs. Girls and boys go to school together and sexism still occurs. Catholic and Protestant can go to school together and sectarianism can still occur.

Nine times out of ten, sectarianism, racism and homophobia will start in the home under the influence of parents and siblings. This is what people don't want to confront. It's much easier to just blame "them" and "their schools" than face the fact that Mum and Dad are a pair of nasty bigots.

It's interesting to note that many of those who want rid of RC schools don't have any problem with some ostensibly Non-Denom schools that routinely waste pupils time with prayer assemblies and hymn practice.

first time he's mentioned it tbh , have know him for 7 years now ; supports neither of the old firm

i asked him a question about recent sectarian issues (or press coverage there of), as he had been back home recently

i merely asked his take on things as they stand today

was reading an article in Scotsman online today , was one of the highest commented on where talks about sectarian issue

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

first time he's mentioned it tbh , have know him for 7 years now ; supports neither of the old firm

i asked him a question about recent sectarian issues (or press coverage there of), as he had been back home recently

i merely asked his take on things as they stand today

was reading an article in Scotsman online today , was one of the highest commented on where talks about sectarian issue

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/report-warns-of-sectarian-tensions-in-scotland-1-3700020

this one

[ErsatzThistle]

first time he's mentioned it tbh , have know him for 7 years now ; supports neither of the old firm

i asked him a question about recent sectarian issues (or press coverage there of), as he had been back home recently

i merely asked his take on things as they stand today

One doesn't have to support either of the Old Firm or even be into football to be a bigot.

Having an unhealthy obsession about the existence of RC schools is usually a giveaway sign though.

was reading an article in Scotsman online today , was one of the highest commented on where talks about sectarian issue

Sectarianism highly commented on ? You don't say.

The Scotsman is a right wing rag and many of the intolerant nutters who post in it's "comment is free" section will be voting for UKIP Scotland in several weeks time.

[Return of Yermaw]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/report-warns-of-sectarian-tensions-in-scotland-1-3700020

this one

For a supposed broadsheet, the comments posted against Scotsman articles often look like they have come straight from one a knuckle dragging football forum (this one excepted of course). Compared to the Herald comments section it's night and day. Despite the obvious different leanings of the papers, I wonder why that is. I don't believe the comments posted in The Telegraph are any less articulate than that posted in The Guardian - just more unsavoury and probably containing more throw away casual racist lines.......

[Auld_Reekie]

Here's another thing ahead of #indyref2 - the GERS figures released today are pretty brutal. We need a decent spin on why the economy is failing. Is it good enough to continually blame Westminster for the Scottish deficit as outlined by GERS? Unionists and journalists weighing in on social media now. The public narrative is going to continue to be that Scotland is a basket case.