Ukraine

[robbo cop]

32 minutes ago, aaid said:

Sorry, but the guy has been pushing an agenda since day one that somehow Ukraine is responsible for Russia invading, that the Ukrainians are Nazis, Ukraine is developing chemical weapons and that Russia is justified in invading.  

Forgive me then for being cynical and thinking that there is zero sincerity in these “war is hell” posts.  War seemingly is only hell when it’s not going the way you thought/hoped it would do.

Don't know about others but my post was 100% sincere and they find a way out of this.

 

[Ally Bongo]

59 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/15/china-does-not-want-to-be-impacted-by-russia-sanctions-fm

“China is not a party to the crisis, still less wants to be affected by the sanctions,” Wang Yi said, according to a readout of a phone call with Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Albares that was published on Tuesday.

He added that China rejects sanctions in principle and “has the right to safeguard its legitimate rights and interests”, calling the nearly three-week conflict in Ukraine “the product of the accumulation and intensification of European security contradictions over the years”.


Presumably don't watch BBC24 or CNN over there elsewise he'd know this is purely down to Putin being fully mental.

Report also notes the following:

He also demanded Washington acknowledge how sensitive the Taiwan issue is and not go further down a “very dangerous road”.

So once this shit show is over series 2 might begin in a more exotic location (at least we know what China want out of coming down on 'our' side I suppose).

 

Either I'm xenophobic, Gerry Anderson was or we both are as getting strong Supermarionation baddie vibes of that fella.  

I am reading it as China (and indeed Iran) are surprised at the response of the West and are shitting it

[thplinth]

56 minutes ago, robbo cop said:

 Not just about one old guy suffering, but thousands if not millions have been affected 

No home, no jobs, innocent children dying, the list is endless yet some people on here want to get one over someone else by way of posts. 

I don't think we ever forget previous wars, conflicts or attacks but the evil still seems to be worse than ever.

Hopefully sooner or later the peace talks might take some affect but I certainly won't hold my breath.

 

4 minutes ago, robbo cop said:

Don't know about others but my post was 100% sincere and they find a way out of this.

Yeah hopefully they do but I also wont be holding my breath. Hoping for the best while expecting the worst as they say.

[Dave78]

I read some of this thread yesterday. It contains lots of screenshots of US/European fighters who have joined the Ukrainian foreign legion.

It seems they're not used to the lack of air/artillery support, which they'd have had in Iraq/Afghanistan, and are finding it tough. Helps us understand why Zelensky is desperate for the no fly zone. 

 

*Usual caveats apply about it possibly being Russian propaganda, and me being an FSB agent....

 

 

[aaid]

32 minutes ago, robbo cop said:

Don't know about others but my post was 100% sincere and they find a way out of this.

 

Sorry, although I replied to your post, my response wasn’t directed to you, I’ve no reason to doubt your sincerity.

[robbo cop]

26 minutes ago, aaid said:

Sorry, although I replied to your post, my response wasn’t directed to you, I’ve no reason to doubt your sincerity.

No problems😃.

[ThistleWhistle]

3 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

I am reading it as China (and indeed Iran) are surprised at the response of the West and are shitting it

I'm not sure - I was getting more a vibe they were pissed off getting poked and prodded by both sides to back them and denounce the other.  

Iran seem fairly bullish at the minute in their nuclear negotiations and broke off discussions with the Saudi's too.  

[Lamia]

6 hours ago, Dave78 said:

I read some of this thread yesterday. It contains lots of screenshots of US/European fighters who have joined the Ukrainian foreign legion.

It seems they're not used to the lack of air/artillery support, which they'd have had in Iraq/Afghanistan, and are finding it tough. Helps us understand why Zelensky is desperate for the no fly zone. 

 

*Usual caveats apply about it possibly being Russian propaganda, and me being an FSB agent....

 

 

And then there are people like this 🙄 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-briton-who-travelled-to-warzone-to-join-military-fight-against-russia-leaves-over-suicide-mission-fears-12566254 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Lamia

[Dave78]

17 minutes ago, Lamia said:

And then there are people like this 🙄 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-briton-who-travelled-to-warzone-to-join-military-fight-against-russia-leaves-over-suicide-mission-fears-12566254 

I'm pretty sure that guy's not playing with a full deck. Probably thought the war would be like a Playstation game.

He should have remained like the rest of us on social media - proud members of the 101st Chairborne Division.

[ThistleWhistle]

⁹Heard on Radio 4 the Chinese Correspondent for the Economist say our media is massaging what China are saying.

Instead China lay the blame at the door of the US and Europe for this kicking off

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1254947.shtml

And have accused US of misleading them on Ukraine:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1254976.shtml

Their state censored media seem to see this as a prequel for Taiwan by the look of it

[Lamia]

1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

I'm pretty sure that guy's not playing with a full deck. Probably thought the war would be like a Playstation game.

He should have remained like the rest of us on social media - proud members of the 101st Chairborne Division.

Don't know why has wife hasn't kicked him out!

[Dave78]

7 minutes ago, Lamia said:

Don't know why has wife hasn't kicked him out!

Some neck on him not telling her.

"Back soon love. I'm just nipping down to the shop for a pint of milk, <whispered> and the blood of as many Russian spetsnaz as i can kill".

 

 

My (future at the time) missus once had my bags packed and sent me down to my Mums for a weekend after i got back from a Scotland trip without phoning her. I'd rather face the Russians to be honest.

[thplinth]

Unverified but very believable, does not sound good... 

 

[Lamia]

Maybe I am being naive but I am actually slightly more hopeful. I can now actually see a way out of this when previously I thought Putin had cornered himself but it does depend on whether he does want out of it and on that I don't know. The fact that he has never called it a war is actually maybe a positive thing because winning a special military operation is very different to winning a war. It also looks like Ukraine are moving on their stance on NATO.

Who really knows though but I am holding on to hope.

[thplinth]

Watch out for the media trying to make out that the conflict / war started in 2022. This seems to be latest script.

1. The conflict / war started in 2014 with the coup of the Ukrainian president.

2. There was then an 8 year period of low level 'warfare'.

3. There then was a major escalation of the war by Russia in 2022.

Three distinct phases.

The coup was sponsored by the west and the 'muscle on the ground' were the neo-nazis. Our friend above in the C14 told us that "Maidan would have been a gay parade without them". The snipers were not on the government side but on the coup side and they were likely brought in from Georgia. (I guess that was the pay off for the Georgian prick - being made the Governor of Odessa.)

The 8 year period of low level warfare that followed the coup consisted of a systematic series of provocations designed to draw in a Russian reaction. Incorporating neo-nazis into the national guard, banning the Russian language when something like a third of Ukrainians use it as their first language, shelling civilian centres in eastern Ukraine killing 14,000 people (again by guess whom, our friends the nazis), cutting off water to the whole of Crimea essentially killing it, making it clear Ukraine will join NATO ASAP, making it clear Ukraine intends to develop nuclear weapons ASAP, the suspected bio labs... it goes on and on.

And then we come to the inevitable reaction. A massive escalation from Russia and all the utter carnage that goes with it. 

The coup and the following 8 years 'explain' why Russia intervened. Phase 1 & 2 explain phase 3. It is not that surprising really. To understand what is happening now you have to recognize what happened before it.

Who is guilty of starting the war? The West.

Who is guilty of provoking an escalation? The West

Who is guilty of escalating the war? Russia.

So whose 'fault' is it? You tell me. Who should we 'condemn'? This is not black and white and the West has played a massive role in getting us to this point, indeed the major one. It is 'us' that wanted this war not 'them'. And now 'we' have it.

The West worked very hard to get this escalation from Russia. The question for me is what are we going to do now we have it because I think our leaders may have underestimated just how far the Russians are now willing to go here.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[thplinth]

If we are lucky the goal of all of this was just to provoke this current situation whereby the west can now ostracize Russia and kick-start Cold War 2.0 in the public's mind. If that is the case they will now back it down and let Russia finish its 'special operation' as the goal has now been achieved. Ukraine has served its purpose...

If the plan is beyond that and they want to find an excuse to go into Ukraine or try to enforce a no fly zone then it inevitably means nuclear war.

All I know is the folk on 'our' side orchestrating it don't give a fuck about ordinary human suffering. That has been proven over and over this last 20 years, in Irag, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen... and others. I certainly don't think they give a fuck about Europeans. I think they may even have contempt for us and we are just the next row of sacrificial pawns on their insane chess board.

Ah well time will tell. 😀

[thplinth]

They are sending Ukraine portable surface to air misses that pose a serious threat to commercial aviation. These things are not that big and inevitably are going to fall into the wrong hands and could be used to commit future terrorist attacks, e.g. shooting down jets as the take off / land etc. Ukraine is in our neighbourhood and is one of the most corrupt countries you can find, there will be people in Ukraine selling this hardware to who knows exactly. It is all so incredibly reckless. (Especially if you believe the reports from the Russians who say there were 500 odd Al Qaeda fighters in Ukraine as well.)

As I say the people who have brought us to this point are either psychos or evil (or maybe they are just the same thing).

 

[Ally Bongo]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/17/ukraine-russia-corruption-putin-democracy-oligarchs/

 

Since 2014, Ukrainian civil society groups, governmental reformers, and international partners have been crafting the country’s anti-corruption architecture. Experts advocated for the adoption of a host of laws, and then monitored their implementation and sustainability. Inspired by the experiences of Romania and Georgia, anti-corruption reforms were based primarily on two pillars.

The first one foresaw opening to the public as much state-controlled information (such as registries, or information on public procurements or state spending) as possible to shrink the space for corruption. The second was based on establishing independent anti-corruption institutions from scratch to prosecute top officials.

As a result, in 2015-16 the Ukrainian government opened state databases, including real estate, vehicle, land, and company registries. Public procurement was transferred to the online system ProZorro (which means “transparent” in English), which now saves up to 10 percent of the funds budgeted for each purchase due to the site’s auction approach, transparency, and competitiveness.

Since 2016, around one million public servants have submitted asset declarations to the electronic declaration system annually. They must report their and their family members’ incomes, assets, real estate, valuable property, corporate rights, beneficial ownership of companies, bank accounts, art, fur coats—and even hard cash stocked in closets or deposit boxes. If there’s a gross discrepancy between their lifestyles and income, they will face administrative or criminal sanctions.

These measures significantly empowered civil society experts and investigative journalists to reveal and expose corruption, thus elevating the risk for corrupt officials, who are sensitive to any public exposure of their wrongdoings. Also, these measures contributed to the country’s business climate, particularly via better protection of property rights.

Another ongoing process to digitize state services is simplifying the relationship between citizens and the state—which also narrows possibilities for corrupt behavior. The results are already being felt: Digitization in the city-planning and construction industry alone helps to save around $110 million annually, which previously had gone into the pockets of corrupt officials.

This radical openness gave birth to more anti-kleptocracy projects driven by civil society, such as a public national database of politically exposed persons—individuals who hold “prominent public function”—and their family members and close associates. These people include the president, ministers, members of parliament, top judges, and executives of state enterprises.

 

According to international anti-money laundering standards, the transactions of such figures should be monitored more scrupulously, and explanation should be provided for the origins of funds. Previously, in order to avoid this monitoring, politically exposed persons deliberately failed to report their status to financial institutions. Now, the database includes profiles of over 48,000 top officials and their associates, and dossiers on more than 30,000 affiliated legal entities. Ukrainian and international financial institutions, as well as law enforcement agencies, are using this information for due diligence measures and to investigate suspicious transactions.

New criminal justice institutions have also been built in Ukraine, with a focus on hiring honest managers and staff who will then fight against high-profile corruption. Launched in 2015, the law enforcement body National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU) has already made enemies by sending 325 indictments to court. After going after top officials, including the then-incumbent head of tax administration, and looking into complicated cases such as the unprecedented $5.5 billion bank robbery scheme, NABU has proven itself capable and politically independent.

Due to increased transparency and the work of new institutions, civil society, and journalists, more corruption is now revealed, reported, and investigated in Ukraine. But real accountability is yet to come. The reality is that Ukraine still needs holistic reform to clean the courts of corrupt judges and finally enshrine the rule of law.

[Orraloon]

Could be doing with some of that in the UK.

[Ally Bongo]

Old Adolf in the bunker

[Ally Bongo]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:52 PM, ThistleWhistle said:

I'm not sure - I was getting more a vibe they were pissed off getting poked and prodded by both sides to back them and denounce the other.  

Iran seem fairly bullish at the minute in their nuclear negotiations and broke off discussions with the Saudi's too.  

Nazanin Zaghari -Ratcliffe released by Iran (supposedly after the UK paid the money it owed them which i take with a pinch of salt) and then this

 

Liz Sly

 

@LizSly

 

There couldn’t be a more powerful sign of which way the wind is blowing in Ukraine. China meeting with Ukraine officials in Lviv. “We have seen how great the unity of the Ukrainian people is” the Chinese ambassador is quoted as saying

[mccaughey85]

20 hours ago, thplinth said:

Watch out for the media trying to make out that the conflict / war started in 2022. This seems to be latest script.

1. The conflict / war started in 2014 with the coup of the Ukrainian president.

2. There was then an 8 year period of low level 'warfare'.

3. There then was a major escalation of the war by Russia in 2022.

Three distinct phases.

The coup was sponsored by the west and the 'muscle on the ground' were the neo-nazis. Our friend above in the C14 told us that "Maidan would have been a gay parade without them". The snipers were not on the government side but on the coup side and they were likely brought in from Georgia. (I guess that was the pay off for the Georgian prick - being made the Governor of Odessa.)

The 8 year period of low level warfare that followed the coup consisted of a systematic series of provocations designed to draw in a Russian reaction. Incorporating neo-nazis into the national guard, banning the Russian language when something like a third of Ukrainians use it as their first language, shelling civilian centres in eastern Ukraine killing 14,000 people (again by guess whom, our friends the nazis), cutting off water to the whole of Crimea essentially killing it, making it clear Ukraine will join NATO ASAP, making it clear Ukraine intends to develop nuclear weapons ASAP, the suspected bio labs... it goes on and on.

And then we come to the inevitable reaction. A massive escalation from Russia and all the utter carnage that goes with it. 

The coup and the following 8 years 'explain' why Russia intervened. Phase 1 & 2 explain phase 3. It is not that surprising really. To understand what is happening now you have to recognize what happened before it.

Who is guilty of starting the war? The West.

Who is guilty of provoking an escalation? The West

Who is guilty of escalating the war? Russia.

So whose 'fault' is it? You tell me. Who should we 'condemn'? This is not black and white and the West has played a massive role in getting us to this point, indeed the major one. It is 'us' that wanted this war not 'them'. And now 'we' have it.

The West worked very hard to get this escalation from Russia. The question for me is what are we going to do now we have it because I think our leaders may have underestimated just how far the Russians are now willing to go here.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

The russian language wasnt banned, a quick online search will show that it wasnt. Also zelensky was elected democratically, if thats who the ukrainian ppl want as President then why should that be a problem to russia.

The low level warfare appears to have started because russia basically invaded and took control of crimea. Ukraine responded to this aggression with their own aggression to the point where russia hace decided to invade.

Trying to spin and twist this into some kind nato/west masterplan to destroy russia is bullshit imo. If countries want to stick together to prevent them being attacked then thats their business. Trying to paint ukraine as the aggressor here just doesnt wash with me. They invaded ukrainian territory(crimea) and there was a backlash. What did they expect would happen.

Also if ukraine want to develop nuclear weapons then who are russia to tell them they cant. Maybe if ukraine had nuclear weapons putin would of thought twice about invading them.

Do you agree with the invading of ukraine and annexing of crimea in 2014?

 

[Lamia]

Does Zelenskyy think we are buttoned up the back - just speaking to the Germans and claiming he said Russia was about to invade and demanded action from the West, when in February he was having a go at the US for "hyping up" the possibility of invasion and saying he could see no evidence this was going to happen.

[mccaughey85]

58 minutes ago, Lamia said:

Does Zelenskyy think we are buttoned up the back - just speaking to the Germans and claiming he said Russia was about to invade and demanded action from the West, when in February he was having a go at the US for "hyping up" the possibility of invasion and saying he could see no evidence this was going to happen.

Maybe he genuinely didnt think russia would invade.

[Ally Bongo]

2 hours ago, Lamia said:

Does Zelenskyy think we are buttoned up the back - just speaking to the Germans and claiming he said Russia was about to invade and demanded action from the West, when in February he was having a go at the US for "hyping up" the possibility of invasion and saying he could see no evidence this was going to happen.

Probably did the first from behind the scenes and the second was to try and avoid panic

Nobody - even the assets within the Kremlin - thought Putin would be mad enough to actually go through with invasion