Ukraine

[Squirrelhumper]

 

[Squirrelhumper]

19 minutes ago, Lamia said:

Who are they exactly? I don’t see anyone in this category 

I would say you must have the main culprit on ignore but you've been quoting/replying to he/her all morning.

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

4 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I would say you must have the main culprit on ignore but you've been quoting/replying to he/her all morning.

incredulous. 

[Dave78]

56 minutes ago, Lamia said:

Seriously 🤨

 

Chicken Kyivs with a side order of Freedom Fries.

Perfect for those who will photo their dinner and post it on Facebook to show solidarity with the people of Ukraine.

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

10 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

t takes two to tango and our failings in diplomacy are fully reprehensible despite how much our media avoid scrutinising how we got here.  I'm beggining to find the glorification of normal Ukrainians dying valiantly defending their homes thoroughly repugnant as the west are complicit in putting them in this position and supplying them with anti-tank weaponry and an instruction manual doesn’t absolve us our responsibility nor accountability into what is turning into a complete and utter shit show.   

 

Strategy without Tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat

The Russians are guilty of the prior but we are illustrating signs of the later as what is our exit strategy?  At the moment it just seems to be clapping Ukrainians throwing themselves infront of the Russian war machine in the hope it slows them down - It's straight out of the Zapp Brannigan playbook vs the Killbots on Futurama.     

 

 

The only diplomatic failings have been that we tolerated Putin up until now and have let him get away with atrocities in Chechnya, Syria and Crimea. We should have stopped him years ago through Sanctions etc but that wasn't a popular option - especially when he had an ally (Trump) in the White House for 4 years.

There are no good exit strategies - but don't blame NATO or the West for that - just one sad man is to blame. 

The likely end, if not global nuclear destruction, is that Ukraine becomes divided in two and an iron curtain descends once again behind Europe. That allows Putin to save face in Russia and stops the murder and destruction. But the Terrorist will have won. 

[Och Aye]

15 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I would say you must have the main culprit on ignore but you've been quoting/replying to he/her all morning.

You said "Putin apologists on here" - plural, assuming you mean thplinth but who are the others? 

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

Weird that more than one million Ukrainians are fleeing west instead of into the arms of their liberators to the east and north.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by SpecialisedOutsourcing

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

12 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

You said "Putin apologists on here" - plural, assuming you mean thplinth but who are the others? 

There's a few "false equivalentists", if you like, eager to find the West at some fault or some semblance of blame when only one man bears all the responsibility. 

[mccaughey85]

5 minutes ago, SpecialisedOutsourcing said:

There's a few "false equivalentists", if you like, eager to find the West at some fault or some semblance of blame when only one man bears all the responsibility. 

Its natos fault, they are full of nazis is what I heard. 

[thplinth]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Not sure how the Putin apologists on here can even try and defend this.

They didn't. You just made it up. Why would anyone try to defend people getting killed, on either side. 

 

[thplinth]

5 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Its natos fault, they are full of nazis is what I heard. 

And you wonder why I don't bother answering your questions. 😀

[Lamia]

49 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

 

Absolutely fucking horrific seeing normal folk stuck in this from both sides.  

 

 

The ones I feel the most sorry for are the Syrians who fled to Ukraine and are now having to flee again. 

[Dave78]

Chapter and verse on the western media's hypocrisy in the past week or so...

Been saying it for years, MediaLens is always worth reading.

https://www.medialens.org/2022/doubling-down-on-double-standards-the-ukraine-propaganda-blitz/

[thplinth]

It would be very easy to find a lot of gore porn on the Ukrainian civilians bombed overt the last 7 years in the east and then say I cant believe the neo nazi sympathizers on here are defending this.

But that would be bullshit. No one is defending people getting murdered and I think it would be better to stop trying position it that anyone on here would. That is trying to demonize people. 

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

2 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

Chapter and verse on the western media's hypocrisy in the past week or so...

Been saying it for years, MediaLens is always worth reading.

https://www.medialens.org/2022/doubling-down-on-double-standards-the-ukraine-propaganda-blitz/

Who are the authors DE and DC? I assume they don't live in the West given how bad and evil it is? 

The difference of course is that in the West you are not sentenced to 15 years in prison for criticising your Govt. 

It doesn't all have to be one or the other - the invasion of Iraq was terrible - Afghanistan however is hard to argue with. Libya? Really?

And I'm sympathetic with the Palestinians (wait, does that make me a neo-nazi? - this is so confusing)

[ThistleWhistle]

7 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

Chapter and verse on the western media's hypocrisy in the past week or so...

Been saying it for years, MediaLens is always worth reading.

https://www.medialens.org/2022/doubling-down-on-double-standards-the-ukraine-propaganda-blitz/

I watched Al Jazeera for an hour over the weekend and think I learnt more in that time about what's going on than in over a week watching BBC, Sky and ITN.  

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

6 minutes ago, thplinth said:

It would be very easy to find a lot of gore porn on the Ukrainian civilians bombed overt the last 7 years in the east and then say I cant believe the neo nazi sympathizers on here are defending this.

But that would be bullshit. No one is defending people getting murdered and I think it would be better to stop trying position it that anyone on here would. That is trying to demonize people. 

You've had 9 days to roundly condemn the invasion but doggedly have refused to do so - you did know people were/are going to get murdered right? 

[aaid]

7 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

Chapter and verse on the western media's hypocrisy in the past week or so...

Been saying it for years, MediaLens is always worth reading.

https://www.medialens.org/2022/doubling-down-on-double-standards-the-ukraine-propaganda-blitz/

And your point is?

The US, UK and various others invading into Iraq to effect regime change being bad doesn't make Russia invading Ukraine to do exactly the same thing any less bad.
 

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

4 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I watched Al Jazeera for an hour over the weekend and think I learnt more in that time about what's going on than in over a week watching BBC, Sky and ITN.  

No one is making you live in the West - free to leave at any time!

[Dave78]

1 minute ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I watched Al Jazeera for an hour over the weekend and think I learnt more in that time about what's going on than in over a week watching BBC, Sky and ITN.  

I had been watching a bit of RT since the invasion started (until it was banned). It had a clear and obvious agenda of course, but you know that when you turn it on.

One point they did make was accusing the Ukrainian military of using 'human shields', and showed photos of Ukrainian tanks next to residential blocks.

That reminded me of Iraq, because that was exactly what we accused Saddam of doing.

No mention of that this time round on the BBC of course. Funny that.

[Dave78]

4 minutes ago, aaid said:

And your point is?

The US, UK and various others invading into Iraq to effect regime change being bad doesn't make Russia invading Ukraine to do exactly the same thing any less bad.
 

I agree, of course.

Allow me to quote the article's conclusion. Please read this part at least....

 

 

Conclusion – ‘Whataboutism’ Or ‘Wearenobetterism’?

Regardless of the history and context of what came before, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a major international crime and the consequences are hugely serious.

Our essential point for over 20 years has been that the public is bombarded with the crimes of Official Enemies by ‘mainstream’ media, while ‘our’ crimes are ignored, or downplayed, or ‘justified’. A genuinely free and independent media would be exactly as tough and challenging on US-UK-NATO actions and policies as they are on Russian actions and policies.

To point out this glaring double standard is not to ‘carry water for Putin’; any more than pointing out state-corporate deceptions over Iraq, Libya and Syria meant we held any kind of candle for Saddam, Gaddafi or Assad.

As Chomsky has frequently pointed out, it is easy to condemn the crimes of Official Enemies. But it is a basic ethical principle that, first and foremost, we should hold to account those governments for which we share direct political and moral responsibility. This is why we focus so intensively on the crimes of our own government and its leading allies.

We have condemned Putin’s war of aggression and supported demands for an immediate withdrawal. We are not remotely pro-Russian government – we revile Putin’s tyranny and state violence exactly as much as we revile the West’s tyrannical, imperial violence. We have repeatedly made clear that we oppose all war, killing and hate. Our guiding belief is that these horrors become less likely when journalism drops its double standards and challenges ‘our’ crimes in the same way it challenges ‘theirs’.

Chomsky explained:

‘Suppose I criticise Iran. What impact does that have? The only impact it has is in fortifying those who want to carry out policies I don’t agree with, like bombing.’

Our adding a tiny drop of criticism to the tsunami of Western global, billion-dollar-funded, 24/7 loathing of Putin achieves nothing beyond the outcome identified by Chomsky. If we have any hope of positively impacting the world, it lies in countering the illusions and violence of the government for which we are morally accountable.

But why speak up now, in particular? Shouldn’t we just shut up and ‘get on board’ in a time of crisis? No, because war is a time when propaganda messages are hammered home with great force: ‘We’re the Good Guys standing up for democracy.’ It is a vital time to examine and challenge these claims.

What critics dismiss as ‘Whataboutism’ is actually ‘Wearenobetterism’. If ‘we’ are no better, or if ‘we’ are actually worse, then where does that leave ‘our’ righteous moral outrage? Can ‘compassion’ rooted in deep hypocrisy be deeply felt?

Critics dismissing evidence of double standards as ‘whataboutery’, are promoting the view that ‘their’ crimes should be wholly condemned, but not those committed by ‘Us’ and ‘Our’ allies. The actions of Official Enemies are to be judged by a different standard than that by which we judge ourselves. 

As we pointed out via Twitter:

Spot all the high-profile commentators who condemn Russia’s aggression against Ukraine…

…and who remain silent about or support:

* Invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq

* NATO’s destruction of Libya

* Saudi-led coalition bombing of Yemen

* Apartheid Israel’s crushing of Palestinians

The question has to be asked: Is the impassioned public response to another media bombardment of the type described by Howard Zinn at the top of this alert a manifestation of the power of human compassion, or is it a manifestation of power?

Are we witnessing genuine human concern, or the ability of global state-corporate interests to sell essentially the same story over and over again? The same bad guy: Milosevic, Bin Laden, Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad and Putin; the same Good Guys: US, UK, NATO and ‘our’ obedient clients; the same alleged noble cause: freedom, democracy, human rights; the same means: confrontation, violence, a flood of bombs and missiles (‘the best ones’). And the same results: control of whole countries, massively increased arms budgets, and control of natural resources.

Ultimately, we are being asked to believe that the state-corporate system that has illegally bombed, droned, invaded, occupied and sanctioned so many countries over the last few decades – a system that responds even to the threat of human extinction from climate change with ‘Blah, blah, blah!’ – is motivated by compassion for the suffering of Ukrainian civilians. As Erich Fromm wrote:

‘To be naive and easily deceived is impermissible, today more than ever, when the prevailing untruths may lead to a catastrophe because they blind people to real dangers and real possibilities.’ (Fromm, ‘The Art Of Being’, Continuum, 1992, p.19)

DE and DC

 

 

[Orraloon]

2 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

I agree, of course.

Allow me to quote the article's conclusion. Please read this part at least....

 

 

Conclusion – ‘Whataboutism’ Or ‘Wearenobetterism’?

Regardless of the history and context of what came before, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a major international crime and the consequences are hugely serious.

Our essential point for over 20 years has been that the public is bombarded with the crimes of Official Enemies by ‘mainstream’ media, while ‘our’ crimes are ignored, or downplayed, or ‘justified’. A genuinely free and independent media would be exactly as tough and challenging on US-UK-NATO actions and policies as they are on Russian actions and policies.

To point out this glaring double standard is not to ‘carry water for Putin’; any more than pointing out state-corporate deceptions over Iraq, Libya and Syria meant we held any kind of candle for Saddam, Gaddafi or Assad.

As Chomsky has frequently pointed out, it is easy to condemn the crimes of Official Enemies. But it is a basic ethical principle that, first and foremost, we should hold to account those governments for which we share direct political and moral responsibility. This is why we focus so intensively on the crimes of our own government and its leading allies.

We have condemned Putin’s war of aggression and supported demands for an immediate withdrawal. We are not remotely pro-Russian government – we revile Putin’s tyranny and state violence exactly as much as we revile the West’s tyrannical, imperial violence. We have repeatedly made clear that we oppose all war, killing and hate. Our guiding belief is that these horrors become less likely when journalism drops its double standards and challenges ‘our’ crimes in the same way it challenges ‘theirs’.

Chomsky explained:

‘Suppose I criticise Iran. What impact does that have? The only impact it has is in fortifying those who want to carry out policies I don’t agree with, like bombing.’

Our adding a tiny drop of criticism to the tsunami of Western global, billion-dollar-funded, 24/7 loathing of Putin achieves nothing beyond the outcome identified by Chomsky. If we have any hope of positively impacting the world, it lies in countering the illusions and violence of the government for which we are morally accountable.

But why speak up now, in particular? Shouldn’t we just shut up and ‘get on board’ in a time of crisis? No, because war is a time when propaganda messages are hammered home with great force: ‘We’re the Good Guys standing up for democracy.’ It is a vital time to examine and challenge these claims.

What critics dismiss as ‘Whataboutism’ is actually ‘Wearenobetterism’. If ‘we’ are no better, or if ‘we’ are actually worse, then where does that leave ‘our’ righteous moral outrage? Can ‘compassion’ rooted in deep hypocrisy be deeply felt?

Critics dismissing evidence of double standards as ‘whataboutery’, are promoting the view that ‘their’ crimes should be wholly condemned, but not those committed by ‘Us’ and ‘Our’ allies. The actions of Official Enemies are to be judged by a different standard than that by which we judge ourselves. 

As we pointed out via Twitter:

Spot all the high-profile commentators who condemn Russia’s aggression against Ukraine…

…and who remain silent about or support:

* Invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq

* NATO’s destruction of Libya

* Saudi-led coalition bombing of Yemen

* Apartheid Israel’s crushing of Palestinians

The question has to be asked: Is the impassioned public response to another media bombardment of the type described by Howard Zinn at the top of this alert a manifestation of the power of human compassion, or is it a manifestation of power?

Are we witnessing genuine human concern, or the ability of global state-corporate interests to sell essentially the same story over and over again? The same bad guy: Milosevic, Bin Laden, Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad and Putin; the same Good Guys: US, UK, NATO and ‘our’ obedient clients; the same alleged noble cause: freedom, democracy, human rights; the same means: confrontation, violence, a flood of bombs and missiles (‘the best ones’). And the same results: control of whole countries, massively increased arms budgets, and control of natural resources.

Ultimately, we are being asked to believe that the state-corporate system that has illegally bombed, droned, invaded, occupied and sanctioned so many countries over the last few decades – a system that responds even to the threat of human extinction from climate change with ‘Blah, blah, blah!’ – is motivated by compassion for the suffering of Ukrainian civilians. As Erich Fromm wrote:

‘To be naive and easily deceived is impermissible, today more than ever, when the prevailing untruths may lead to a catastrophe because they blind people to real dangers and real possibilities.’ (Fromm, ‘The Art Of Being’, Continuum, 1992, p.19)

DE and DC

 

 

I think that's you on the list of "Putin sympathizers". 😉

 

[thplinth]

18 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I watched Al Jazeera for an hour over the weekend and think I learnt more in that time about what's going on than in over a week watching BBC, Sky and ITN.  

Even PressTV (the Iranian one) was better than the BBC! They banned that one a while ago now as well.

[SpecialisedOutsourcing]

20 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I think that's you on the list of "Putin sympathizers". 😉

 

Ok - I'll put the ball back in your court - how do you know that the authors of that article - "DE" and "DC" aren't being paid by Russia / IRA? 

Again though, if it's so bad here in the "West", you don't have to stay. Be like Snowdon.

And Chomsky? God knows what would have happened to the Bosnians if he had been listened to....

Only belgrade being (finally) attacked prevented further genocide there.

Edited March 4, 2022 by SpecialisedOutsourcing

[ThistleWhistle]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

I think that's you on the list of "Putin sympathizers". 😉

 

 Comrades it is now time for the four of us to rise up and take this board from the twenty western degenerates, especially the one on their fifteenth log-in, and claim it for the motherland or fatherland depending how Putin is gendering it in today’s speech.  Anyone posting ‘Boom’ after a goal from now on will be fucked off to Siberia to work in the sulphur mines.