Sad Mindsets of Old

[aaid]

19 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It was much harder to qualify in those days. For those three World Cups we got knocked out by Czechoslovakia (who went on to be runners-up in Chile), Italy and West Germany. 

Meanwhile England only had to beat Melchester Rovers, and got a bye ( or was it a BUY?) into the finals in 66 and 70. We always got the toughest of draws. 

The 1966 qualification was a portent of things to come.   Doing okay against the apparent group favourite - Italy, winning at home and losing away - but fucking up against one of the lesser teams, in this case Poland, who beat us at home and drew with us away.

The Scotland team for that home match against Poland was Bill Brown, Alex Hamilton, Eddie McCreadie, Pat Crerand, Billy McNeill, John Greig, Willie Henderson, Billy Bremner, Alex Gilzean, Dennis Law, Willie Johnston.  The manager Jock Stein.  They lost at home to Poland to two goals in the last 5 five minutes.  Italy put six past them the following month.

Italy drew their opening game away to Poland.  Had we picked up the full  points against Poland we'd have qualified.

[sjd1972]

My money is on Steve Archibald.

[The Black Bra]

5 hours ago, Toepoke said:

Maradona aside it was a poor World Cup. Matches played at walking pace on dry bobbly pitches. Appreciate they had to satisfy the European TV audience, but matches kicking off at midday in the tropics was not the best recipe for good football.

 

Don’t remember it that way. There were some great games, France v Brazil, USSR losing 4-3 to Belgium (Igor Belanov scoring a hat-trick and still ending up on the losing side), a five goal final, etc.

It was far better than Italia ‘90, I remember that being a grim tournament. Loads of low scoring, negative games and teams playing for penalties.

[JECK]

1 hour ago, The Black Bra said:

Don’t remember it that way. There were some great games, France v Brazil, USSR losing 4-3 to Belgium (Igor Belanov scoring a hat-trick and still ending up on the losing side), a five goal final, etc.

It was far better than Italia ‘90, I remember that being a grim tournament. Loads of low scoring, negative games and teams playing for penalties.

Apart from Scotland going out in the group, Italia 90 my favourite World Cup purely for the iconic kits. Never been bettered imo

[romanticscot]

Italia 90 is my fav also, it was my first one that I remember. I remember watching so many games, the mascot, merchandising tie in's like Coke mini balls, ESSO coins, iconic players like Gullit, Maradona, Shilton, Schilacci (?), Roger Milla And of course us playing Brazil. 

[Barney Rubble]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:40 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

The thing that still puzzles me is how the flying fuck did he win 50+ caps. It is a mighty sad indictment of how weak we were in that era for goalkeepers. He has to be the worst long-term goalkeeper I have seen in a Scotland shirt.

Usually enjoy your posts CC, but this is utter dugmeat.

Roughie was capped by five different Scotland managers for a reason.

Have a good look at the Wales game at Anfield in 77 for starters.

[Orraloon]

31 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

Usually enjoy your posts CC, but this is utter dugmeat.

Roughie was capped by five different Scotland managers for a reason.

Have a good look at the Wales game at Anfield in 77 for starters.

Well said, sir. That was one of the best saves ever.

[JECK]

42 minutes ago, romanticscot said:

Italia 90 is my fav also, it was my first one that I remember. I remember watching so many games, the mascot, merchandising tie in's like Coke mini balls, ESSO coins, iconic players like Gullit, Maradona, Shilton, Schilacci (?), Roger Milla And of course us playing Brazil. 

Agreed, everything about it was iconic apart from the quality of the football probably, 😂

[Toepoke]

3 hours ago, The Black Bra said:

Don’t remember it that way. There were some great games, France v Brazil, USSR losing 4-3 to Belgium (Igor Belanov scoring a hat-trick and still ending up on the losing side), a five goal final, etc.

It was far better than Italia ‘90, I remember that being a grim tournament. Loads of low scoring, negative games and teams playing for penalties.

I certainly agree with you that Italia 90 was even worse than Mexico 86.  Ruined by professional fouls and falls, negative tactics and Costa Rica 😡  Cameroon were the only bright spot.

Fortunately it prompted some law changes like the passback rule.

 

[stirlish]

11 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Well said, sir. That was one of the best saves ever.

Did he not do similar in a Belfast qualifier?

[er yir macaroon]

Spain 82 was my favourite. I guess a lot of people are influenced by the first one they clearly remember. That tournament had the incredible Brazil team that somehow lost to Italy. That’s still a sore one! 

[aaid]

14 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

Usually enjoy your posts CC, but this is utter dugmeat.

Roughie was capped by five different Scotland managers for a reason.

Have a good look at the Wales game at Anfield in 77 for starters.

I think Rough got a lot of mostly unwarranted criticism for three reasons. 

Firstly, because he played for Partick Thistle for the bulk of his career, I don't think this is unique to Scotland but there is a view in the country and reflected in the press are certain clubs that internationals should play for and certain clubs which internationals just don't play for.

Secondly, there really wasn't anyone better for a whole chunk of career until Leighton came to the fore which helped to feed a narrative that he only got the gloves because there was no-one better.  I remember going as a kid to a pre-Argentina Q&A with Ally MacLeod at the Magnum in Irvine where he was asked about Rough and basically said "who else is there?".

Finally, he had a laid back style, which was probably part of what made him such a good keeper tbf, which laid him open to criticism.  A good example of this is the Zico free kick in 82 where he was rooted to the spot and watched as the ball sailed past him.   I doubt many keepers would have saved it but most would have made it look like they'd tried.

All that said, on his day he was unbeatable.  I remember being at a game at Ibrox when he was at Hibs and he was an absolute superstar.

[Caledonian Craig]

14 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

Usually enjoy your posts CC, but this is utter dugmeat.

Roughie was capped by five different Scotland managers for a reason.

Have a good look at the Wales game at Anfield in 77 for starters.

Well we are all entitled to our opinion. My point was for a keeper capped 50+ times for us - he would not feature in the top five Scotland 'keepers of all-time and may not even make the top ten in my opinion. I'd place Leighton, Goram, McGregor, Gordon and Marshall certainly above him and maybe even the likes of Sullivan and Douglas above him too. Lets remember the defence he had in front of him at the time - far more revered names than of recent years but look at the goals we shipped in 1978 and 1982. A total of 14 in 6 games and two of those sides were Iran and New Zealand.

[Burj_Alba]

14 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Well said, sir. That was one of the best saves ever.

Probably the only Scottish goalkeeper to win twice at Wembley, only goal conceded was a late consolation penalty by Mick Channon ( 1977), also played in 1981 .  George Wood played in 1979 😬 ( watch that match on YouTube at your peril) 

Add in Anfield, Belfast, Israel among others and I think he gets a lot of silly criticism.

hasn't done him any harm in life.

[Caledonian Craig]

My point was that for one winning 50+ caps he is way down the pecking order of our best goalkeepers ever. Don't get me wrong he filled his boots because of how dreadful we were in that position in that time - it happens. Recently, we have been starved of great goalscorers too and starved of great central defenders in the recent past. It is just a demonstration, I think, as to why we have never made a mark at a major tournament as somewhere our team has had a flaw here and there.

And, of course, Roughie is not going to lose sleep of one random poster's opinion. He will, amongst the majority of Scotland supporters, remain a legend - just not with me.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Caledonian Craig

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Well we are all entitled to our opinion. My point was for a keeper capped 50+ times for us - he would not feature in the top five Scotland 'keepers of all-time and may not even make the top ten in my opinion. I'd place Leighton, Goram, McGregor, Gordon and Marshall certainly above him and maybe even the likes of Sullivan and Douglas above him too. Lets remember the defence he had in front of him at the time - far more revered names than of recent years but look at the goals we shipped in 1978 and 1982. A total of 14 in 6 games and two of those sides were Iran and New Zealand.

You were doing well until you mentioned Sullivan and Douglas.  No votes for Jonathan Gould then?

Leighton and Goram are probably the two best keepers we've ever had - certainly in the modern era - so to compare anyone against them is completely unfair.

The other three are part of an excellent recent group and are amongst the best keepers we've had, you'd probably put them above Rough but not massively.  For various reasons though, injury, poor form, bad moves, Rough outdoes them for playing at a high level for a longer period.

One final point - if the defence was supposedly that good, why were we shipping goals against Iran and New Zealand?

[Caledonian Craig]

10 minutes ago, aaid said:

One final point - if the defence was supposedly that good, why were we shipping goals against Iran and New Zealand?

Well a mixture of two things - slack defending and poor goalkeeping. Watch the Iran goal with Rough beaten at his near post from a tight angle about eight yards out. True the striker should never have got into that position but neither should a keeper let in a goal from that position and not be severely questioned for it. Watch one of the goals against New Zealand - again a mix of poor defending and poor goalkeeping. Defender running back to his own goal with a NZ attacker for company and under hits a back pass but the keeper is only four or five yards off his line. Remember this is an age when back passes were allowed.

[scotlad]

17 hours ago, Toepoke said:

I certainly agree with you that Italia 90 was even worse than Mexico 86.  Ruined by professional fouls and falls, negative tactics and Costa Rica 😡  Cameroon were the only bright spot.

Fortunately it prompted some law changes like the passback rule.

 

Italia '90 is the first World Cup I remember clearly and for that reason I have a huge soft spot for it.

Some of the group games were entertaining but I remember the knockout matches seemed to go on forever!

4 hours ago, aaid said:

I think Rough got a lot of mostly unwarranted criticism for three reasons. 

Firstly, because he played for Partick Thistle for the bulk of his career, I don't think this is unique to Scotland but there is a view in the country and reflected in the press are certain clubs that internationals should play for and certain clubs which internationals just don't play for.

Secondly, there really wasn't anyone better for a whole chunk of career until Leighton came to the fore which helped to feed a narrative that he only got the gloves because there was no-one better.  I remember going as a kid to a pre-Argentina Q&A with Ally MacLeod at the Magnum in Irvine where he was asked about Rough and basically said "who else is there?".

Finally, he had a laid back style, which was probably part of what made him such a good keeper tbf, which laid him open to criticism.  A good example of this is the Zico free kick in 82 where he was rooted to the spot and watched as the ball sailed past him.   I doubt many keepers would have saved it but most would have made it look like they'd tried.

All that said, on his day he was unbeatable.  I remember being at a game at Ibrox when he was at Hibs and he was an absolute superstar.

Apparently one of the reasons he played for Thistle for so long - the other more obvious reason being because they're the best football club in the world - is he could play part-time while he studied dentistry!

[daviebee]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

One final point - if the defence was supposedly that good, why were we shipping goals against Iran and New Zealand?

NZ: Jock Stein fked around with a stable enough defence trying to get EC winner Alun Evans into the team.  I think it was Evans' last game as well.  On top of that Danny McGrain was done by that time.

Iran: we were just sh*te, 1-11.

[Barney Rubble]

4 hours ago, aaid said:

All that said, on his day he was unbeatable.  I remember being at a game at Ibrox when he was at Hibs and he was an absolute superstar.

That was the midweek second leg LC semi when Hibs led 2-0 from the first leg. The only thing that beat Roughie that night was an exocet of a free-kick from Davie Cooper - a rehearsal for the one v Aberdeen in the final a couple of years later, it was that good.

Roughie and Gordon Chisholm had the games of their lives that night.

[aaid]

1 minute ago, Barney Rubble said:

That was the midweek second leg LC semi when Hibs led 2-0 from the first leg. The only thing that beat Roughie that night was an exocet of a free-kick from Davie Cooper - a rehearsal for the one v Aberdeen in the final a couple of years later, it was that good.

Roughie and Gordon Chisholm had the games of their lives that night.

League game in 1987 actually. 

[Barney Rubble]

10 minutes ago, aaid said:

League game in 1987 actually. 

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