Sad Mindsets of Old

[Caledonian Craig]

I read an interesting article online yesterdat about the 1986 World Cup and the war between manager Alex Ferguson and Graeme Souness. Apparently, they were always having heated arguments even over the slightest of things.

The article contained many recollections from Alan Rough who was in the squad as goalkeepung back-up. He gave good insights into behind the scenes stuff but was then shocked by something towards the end of the article. He recalls watching Scotland toil to score against Uruguay from the subs bench. When Steve Nicol missed our best chance Rough recalls the sub next to him saying that was a lucky escape (or words to that effect). Rough said he looked at him quizically and the unnamed played cited something like they weren't going to do anything at the tournameny anyway so sooner exit now.

That really shocked me that anyone selected for a Scotland World Cup squad could ever have that mindset and just wonder prevaillent it was amonst that squad? Also hope to god none of todays players have any such self-defeating and negative thoughts.

 

[Orraloon]

2 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I read an interesting article online yesterdat about the 1986 World Cup and the war between manager Alex Ferguson and Graeme Souness. Apparently, they were always having heated arguments even over the slightest of things.

The article contained many recollections from Alan Rough who was in the squad as goalkeepung back-up. He gave good insights into behind the scenes stuff but was then shocked by something towards the end of the article. He recalls watching Scotland toil to score against Uruguay from the subs bench. When Steve Nicol missed our best chance Rough recalls the sub next to him saying that was a lucky escape (or words to that effect). Rough said he looked at him quizically and the unnamed played cited something like they weren't going to do anything at the tournameny anyway so sooner exit now.

That really shocked me that anyone selected for a Scotland World Cup squad could ever have that mindset and just wonder prevaillent it was amonst that squad? Also hope to god none of todays players have any such self-defeating and negative thoughts.

 

Why didn't he mention which player it was? 

Roughie is a really good laugh, but he does like to tell a tale or two. 

[shaggycoo]

16 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Why didn't he mention which player it was? 

Roughie is a really good laugh, but he does like to tell a tale or two. 

Souness was on the bench that day...

[Orraloon]

2 minutes ago, shaggycoo said:

Souness was on the bench that day...

Can understand why he wanted to go home. He was still suffering from the revenge of the Aztecs.

[Caledonian Craig]

6 minutes ago, shaggycoo said:

Souness was on the bench that day...

Not according to Rough he wasn't. He said Fergie axed him from the team and didn't even make the subs bench for the Uruguay match. In any case, Souness may have been many things, but I don't see him as making that remark. If the remark was said it sounds exactly like what Charlie Nicholas would have said and he was on the bench.

[er yir macaroon]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I read an interesting article online yesterdat about the 1986 World Cup and the war between manager Alex Ferguson and Graeme Souness. Apparently, they were always having heated arguments even over the slightest of things.

The article contained many recollections from Alan Rough who was in the squad as goalkeepung back-up. He gave good insights into behind the scenes stuff but was then shocked by something towards the end of the article. He recalls watching Scotland toil to score against Uruguay from the subs bench. When Steve Nicol missed our best chance Rough recalls the sub next to him saying that was a lucky escape (or words to that effect). Rough said he looked at him quizically and the unnamed played cited something like they weren't going to do anything at the tournameny anyway so sooner exit now.

That really shocked me that anyone selected for a Scotland World Cup squad could ever have that mindset and just wonder prevaillent it was amonst that squad? Also hope to god none of todays players have any such self-defeating and negative thoughts.

 

It infuriated me reading this a few days ago. I still have nightmares about that game and what might have been, and it turns out some of the players couldn’t give a shit.

I’m fairly confident this is no longer the case but you just don’t know what goes on when the media are looking the other way. 

[er yir macaroon]

“It wasn’t our fault that we weren’t on the pitch, so we soon got back to our lemonade, our sports section and our sunbathing.”

What does this transmit to the players on the pitch?

Rough still makes a living out of the game. With comments like this he should be hounded out, he’s taking the fucking piss. How many thousands did the fans shell out going to Mexico while he treated it as a joke? 

[Caledonian Craig]

6 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

It infuriated me reading this a few days ago. I still have nightmares about that game and what might have been, and it turns out some of the players couldn’t give a shit.

I’m fairly confident this is no longer the case but you just don’t know what goes on when the media are looking the other way. 

Yes I was gobsmacked when reading this last night. I don't see at all why Rough would make it up as it shines a bad light on a squad he was part of so had nothing to gain by saying it. Of course it could have been borne out of an attitude of 'Oh well we always qualify. There will be other times.' Unprofessional and uncaring attitude to have whoever it was.

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

“It wasn’t our fault that we weren’t on the pitch, so we soon got back to our lemonade, our sports section and our sunbathing.”

What does this transmit to the players on the pitch?

Rough still makes a living out of the game. With comments like this he should be hounded out, he’s taking the fucking piss. How many thousands did the fans shell out going to Mexico while he treated it as a joke? 

The thing that still puzzles me is how the flying fuck did he win 50+ caps. It is a mighty sad indictment of how weak we were in that era for goalkeepers. He has to be the worst long-term goalkeeper I have seen in a Scotland shirt.

[er yir macaroon]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/nostalgia/3165157/eyewitness-when-alex-ferguson-and-graeme-souness-were-in-each-others-faces-at-the-1986-world-cup/amp/

“But, without him, the Scots simply wilted, our optimism faded and when Steve Nicol squandered our best chance, one of the other substitutes turned to me and said: “Geez, that was a lucky break’.

“I looked quizzically at him and he added: ‘Well, would it really be such a disaster if we don’t win this?’

“I could understand where he was coming from. In the cold light of day, we were never in with a shout of hoisting the World Cup and the winners of our tie with Uruguay were scheduled to meet [eventual winners] Argentina, Diego Maradona and the rest, in the next round.

“All we were doing was delaying the inevitable and that summed up what turned into a pretty lousy event for us. In fact, I’ve never fathomed why there was so little fuss from the supporters about 1986.”

Unbelievable stuff, fucking losers. 

[glasgow jock]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not according to Rough he wasn't. He said Fergie axed him from the team and didn't even make the subs bench for the Uruguay match. In any case, Souness may have been many things, but I don't see him as making that remark. If the remark was said it sounds exactly like what Charlie Nicholas would have said and he was on the bench.

Ah !! the bold Charlie, (I have mentioned this on here a few times over the years), he really could and should have been a superstar for his clubs and country, more natural talent than all his Scottish peers at the time (McCoist / Johnston / McAveney etc etc) put together, was he not out of the tournament by the time of the Uruguay game ? having been injured in the first game (Denmark)

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, glasgow jock said:

Ah !! the bold Charlie, (I have mentioned this on here a few times over the years), he really could and should have been a superstar for his clubs and country, more natural talent than all his Scottish peers at the time (McCoist / Johnston / McAveney etc etc) put together, was he not out of the tournament by the time of the Uruguay game ? having been injured in the first game (Denmark)

No he came on as substitute in the 70th minute of the Uruguay match.

[Caledonian Craig]

10 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/nostalgia/3165157/eyewitness-when-alex-ferguson-and-graeme-souness-were-in-each-others-faces-at-the-1986-world-cup/amp/

“But, without him, the Scots simply wilted, our optimism faded and when Steve Nicol squandered our best chance, one of the other substitutes turned to me and said: “Geez, that was a lucky break’.

“I looked quizzically at him and he added: ‘Well, would it really be such a disaster if we don’t win this?’

“I could understand where he was coming from. In the cold light of day, we were never in with a shout of hoisting the World Cup and the winners of our tie with Uruguay were scheduled to meet [eventual winners] Argentina, Diego Maradona and the rest, in the next round.

“All we were doing was delaying the inevitable and that summed up what turned into a pretty lousy event for us. In fact, I’ve never fathomed why there was so little fuss from the supporters about 1986.”

Unbelievable stuff, fucking losers. 

Agreed.

If this is still our players' mindset then I truly despair.

[Burj_Alba]

17 minutes ago, er yir macaroon said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/nostalgia/3165157/eyewitness-when-alex-ferguson-and-graeme-souness-were-in-each-others-faces-at-the-1986-world-cup/amp/

“But, without him, the Scots simply wilted, our optimism faded and when Steve Nicol squandered our best chance, one of the other substitutes turned to me and said: “Geez, that was a lucky break’.

“I looked quizzically at him and he added: ‘Well, would it really be such a disaster if we don’t win this?’

“I could understand where he was coming from. In the cold light of day, we were never in with a shout of hoisting the World Cup and the winners of our tie with Uruguay were scheduled to meet [eventual winners] Argentina, Diego Maradona and the rest, in the next round.

“All we were doing was delaying the inevitable and that summed up what turned into a pretty lousy event for us. In fact, I’ve never fathomed why there was so little fuss from the supporters about 1986.”

Unbelievable stuff, fucking losers. 

Bloody hell, first time I have read that. Roughie is right in comparing the hammering the 78 squad ( rightly? ) got but at least that squad were really up for it.

Souness? great player but an apology of a human being. Always thought he wished he had ben born 100 miles further south. 

Just a thought, did the obvious hostility between Ferguson and Souness ever reappear when they were managing in England? cant remember any occasions.

[Burj_Alba]

You would have to be there but I cannot imagine a scene against Croatia at Hampden when the sub goalie ( Gordon?) listens to another sub ( Fleck? ) saying "hope we don't score because we don't all get on and I want to go on holiday."

No, no. No. Never happen

[glasgow jock]

6 minutes ago, Burj_Alba said:

Bloody hell, first time I have read that. Roughie is right in comparing the hammering the 78 squad ( rightly? ) got but at least that squad were really up for it.

Souness? great player but an apology of a human being. Always thought he wished he had ben born 100 miles further south. 

Just a thought, did the obvious hostility between Ferguson and Souness ever reappear when they were managing in England? cant remember any occasions.

Always remember him saying in some old TV programme from the 1980's that him & Kenny (Dalglish) where great mates & loved playing together, only difference was that " I (Souness) regard myself as British & He (Dalglish) regards himself as Scottish"

[wanderer]

Hardly anything new, when Joe Harper used to live in Largs, when we met him in the pub and the topic was 1978, basically him, Bobby Clark and Stewart Kennedy stopped going to team meetings after 2/3 days as 99% of them where not about the upcoming matches, but the "disgraceful" bonus payments the English based players felt they were going for being at the World Cup.

1986 it sounds like a battle of ego's, as Fergie had one eye on a move to England (he had accepted the Arsenal job before the WC, but Arsenal wanted him to forgo the World Cup and get straight to work, so he turned it down) and another eye on Souness coming in to Scottish football (apparently Fergie did not take kindly to Souness basically tapping up Walter Smith the whole time they were together).

From what guys like Strachan have said, it was a miserable time at that WC any way compared to 82 which was so relaxed, as half the players got food poisoning within the first few days (Souness was on the "Mars Bar" diet and apparently Eck was in a bad way for most the tournament).

I would also take some of what Roughy says with a pinch of salt, as he has a habit of embellishing stories.

[ThistleWhistle]

3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not according to Rough he wasn't. He said Fergie axed him from the team and didn't even make the subs bench for the Uruguay match. In any case, Souness may have been many things, but I don't see him as making that remark. If the remark was said it sounds exactly like what Charlie Nicholas would have said and he was on the bench.

Remember reading Strachan saying something similar but he was playing so it wasn't him Rough was referring to.  

Basically it was too hot to train much, the tele was all in Spanish, they couldn't go out the compound and the squad had about 10 books between them.  Seemed a strange mindset to me - a World Cup must have been the pinnacle at that time way beyond club competitions but weren't particularly bothered going home early because they were bored. 

Even with streaming tele's, consoles coming out their lugs and the ability to cocoon themselves in their own world can still imagine players who'd be bored with that even now - for me its a mindset and you couldn't imagine it would be something for example the Germans suffered from.  

Edited May 26, 2021 by ThistleWhistle

[wanderer]

5 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Remember reading Strachan saying something similar but he was playing so it wasn't him Rough was referring to.  

Basically it was too hot to train much, the tele was all in Spanish, they couldn't go out the compound and the squad had about 10 books between them.  Seemed a strange mindset to me - a World Cup must have been the pinnacle at that time way beyond club competitions but weren't particularly bothered going home early because they were bored. 

Even with streaming tele's, consoles coming out their lugs and the ability to cocoon themselves in their own world can still imagine players who'd be bored with that even now - for me its a mindset and you couldn't imagine it would be something for example the Germans suffered from.  

When you watch the Maradona documentary, he was effectively staying on someones garage and a compound they were staying in, where they had team BBQ's and stuff.

Behind the scenes, the WC was still a little bit rag tag back then (Argentina showed up with away kits that were not airtex, but fleece lined, and literally the morning of the England game, the kit man had to go hunting around Mexico City for a Le Coq Sportif sports shop to get blue airtex away kit.... got them back just in time, only to notice the numbers where silver, and thus sunlight reflected off them and got in the players eyes)

[ThistleWhistle]

28 minutes ago, wanderer said:

When you watch the Maradona documentary, he was effectively staying on someones garage and a compound they were staying in, where they had team BBQ's and stuff.

Behind the scenes, the WC was still a little bit rag tag back then (Argentina showed up with away kits that were not airtex, but fleece lined, and literally the morning of the England game, the kit man had to go hunting around Mexico City for a Le Coq Sportif sports shop to get blue airtex away kit.... got them back just in time, only to notice the numbers where silver, and thus sunlight reflected off them and got in the players eyes)

I was 6 at 86 so 90 was the first one that I really understood - watching documentaries on it seems an absolute lifetime ago.  Remember being wowed by the timer down the side of the screen but when you see it now looks really dated :) 

Scotland not knowing anything about Costa Rica because  they were in a compound by the time they sent scouts over sounds unbelievable these days with 24 hour sports news and Youtube but wild how quickly things have changed really.  

[wanderer]

1 minute ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I was 6 at 86 so 90 was the first one that I really understood - watching documentaries on it seems an absolute lifetime ago.  Remember being wowed by the timer down the side of the screen but when you see it now looks really dated

Scotland not knowing anything about Costa Rica because  they were in a compound by the time they sent scouts over sounds unbelievable these days with 24 hour sports news and Youtube but wild how quickly things have changed really.  

Story goes Roxbrugh watched Costa Rica play Wales in a pre-tournament friendly, but got bum info on the goalkeeper.... Wales won something like 3-0 on the night and AR came away saying the keeper for them is useless when under pressure (hence he went with McInally) only for it to turn out said keeper was not even in the finals squad.

Seems a life time ago, but back in those days, World Soccer Magazine was effectivly your scouting report for football outside of Europe.

[The Black Bra]

I was 5 in 1978 so can’t remember Argentina ‘78 (probably lucky) but I’ve read the stuff about how the whole organisation of Scotland’s camp was a shambles, they stayed in a hotel that wasn’t finished so there were workmen banging away all the time.

Reading this thread it sounds like it might not have been much different for other countries. Argentina having the wrong kits and Maradona staying in a garage didn’t stop them winning it. I remember when Roy Keane had his meltdown at the 2002 World Cup he said they would turn up for training at there were no footballs. 

[scotlad]

4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Not according to Rough he wasn't. He said Fergie axed him from the team and didn't even make the subs bench for the Uruguay match. In any case, Souness may have been many things, but I don't see him as making that remark. If the remark was said it sounds exactly like what Charlie Nicholas would have said and he was on the bench.

His was the first name I thought of too. 

A really poor attitude but it does sound like some of the organisation was a bit shambolic, surprisingly so, since we were regular WC qualifiers in those days.

Apparently, though, because we were the last team to qualify all the decent hotels near to our venues had gone, so we were staying a couple of hours drive away from where we were actually playing.

It's a pity, because we had a very good side back then.  Not potential winners, but well capable of making the second round at least.  I didn't know we might have faced Argentina if we had gone through though.

[scotlad]

33 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I was 6 at 86 so 90 was the first one that I really understood - watching documentaries on it seems an absolute lifetime ago.  Remember being wowed by the timer down the side of the screen but when you see it now looks really dated

Scotland not knowing anything about Costa Rica because  they were in a compound by the time they sent scouts over sounds unbelievable these days with 24 hour sports news and Youtube but wild how quickly things have changed really.  

I remember that too!  And the Italian TV would occasionally flash up an information box telling you the player's shirt number, name, position (in Italian, obviously!) and, a bit strangely, his age.

29 minutes ago, wanderer said:

Story goes Roxbrugh watched Costa Rica play Wales in a pre-tournament friendly, but got bum info on the goalkeeper.... Wales won something like 3-0 on the night and AR came away saying the keeper for them is useless when under pressure (hence he went with McInally) only for it to turn out said keeper was not even in the finals squad.

Seems a life time ago, but back in those days, World Soccer Magazine was effectivly your scouting report for football outside of Europe.

Apparently the Costa Rica goalie in that game was only something like 5'9", so Roxburgh thought playing a big target man against him would be a good idea.  As it turned out, the guy who actually played against us was about 6'3", and, as we all now know, went largely untroubled and kept a clean sheet!

It's seems funny, given their reputation for fastidiousness, that Brown and Roxburgh should be so lax about a detail like that. 

[ThistleWhistle]

24 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I remember that too!  And the Italian TV would occasionally flash up an information box telling you the player's shirt number, name, position (in Italian, obviously!) and, a bit strangely, his age.

Apparently the Costa Rica goalie in that game was only something like 5'9", so Roxburgh thought playing a big target man against him would be a good idea.  As it turned out, the guy who actually played against us was about 6'3", and, as we all now know, went largely untroubled and kept a clean sheet!

It's seems funny, given their reputation for fastidiousness, that Brown and Roxburgh should be so lax about a detail like that. 

I think they got caught out because when they sent over folk to scout them in the national leagues all the good players were in a camp over there and a lot of the stuff was behind closed doors.  There was barely any tapes either of the qualifying stages to fall back on.

Sounds absolutely bonkers now that an international side knew so little of their opponents that they had to mark numbers at set pieces like a pub side! 

I always wandered what reaction Sweden got to losing to them because they'd at least seen them for 2 games.