Caledonian Craig Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 17 minutes ago, Freeedom said: But the SNP have already said that they aren't going all out for it, "after the pandemic" could be a decade from now. This virus isn't going to just disappear. Furthermore, the SNP aren't campaigning for independence they are campaigning to rejoin the EU. I am a Yes/Leaver, perhaps if they would even consider the idea of giving the people of Scotland a vote on EU membership after independence I would have been more likely to have backed them. Anyway, I cast my vote for Alba today and that was that. No the SNP and NS during this campaign has stated several times it will happen once the COVID-19 crisis has abated say in perhaps a years' time. What must be understood is that at present there is maybe 40% hard core Yes voters who would vote Yes tomorrow if asked. However, that is not enough to get us over the line. There are maybe 10 to 15% Don't Knows out there who will easily be swayed to vote No by Better Together2 if NS fires the starter gun whilst COVID is still an issue. If she does that you are ruling out swaying enough of the Don't Know voters to vote Yes. Lose IndyRef2 and forget about independence in your lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, aaid said: I wouldn't expect you to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThistleWhistle Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 18 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said: I wouldn’t say the bbc is particularly right wing. It's worth a look at what the Tories have done to the make-up of the BBC in recent years as part of the charter discussions. Clementi was May's preferred candidate and has, from memory, directly involved in 13 of the 16 members appointments onto the new board structure. These include one for each region and the Director General that used to be the remit of the BBC themselves. The BBC now only have three members from internal without Government/ Clementi input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeedom Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said: No the SNP and NS during this campaign has stated several times it will happen once the COVID-19 crisis has abated say in perhaps a years' time. What must be understood is that at present there is maybe 40% hard core Yes voters who would vote Yes tomorrow if asked. However, that is not enough to get us over the line. There are maybe 10 to 15% Don't Knows out there who will easily be swayed to vote No by Better Together2 if NS fires the starter gun whilst COVID is still an issue. If she does that you are ruling out swaying enough of the Don't Know voters to vote Yes. Lose IndyRef2 and forget about independence in your lifetime. I don't disagree with much of what you've said but let me be clear. I am not desperate for another indyref next week, I think if we had a referendum tomorrow we would probably lose and I think the reason we would lose is because the Scottish government have wasted the last seven years not campaigning for, or even putting a coherent plan in place for independence. The people want some sort of reassurance about what the country is going to look like and none of that work has been done. The party are scared to even make any kind of argument for independence for fear of putting off their pro EU soft No middle class voters. How are the SNP going to create a country of nationalists who will vote for independence if they wont even make the argument that the best way to recover from this pandemic economically is with the full powers of independence. They are nowhere CLOSE to holding a referendum because they haven't done any of the ground work. I guarantee you there wont be a referendum in the next five years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said: It's worth a look at what the Tories have done to the make-up of the BBC in recent years as part of the charter discussions. Clementi was May's preferred candidate and has, from memory, directly involved in 13 of the 16 members appointments onto the new board structure. These include one for each region and the Director General that used to be the remit of the BBC themselves. The BBC now only have three members from internal without Government/ Clementi input. I get that they are overwhelming pro establishment and government, to what they extent that is right wing is open to interpretation I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Left-right is the same as near-far entirely dependent on where you stand on how you categorise it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 6, 2021 Author Share Posted May 6, 2021 57 minutes ago, Freeedom said: How are the SNP going to create a country of nationalists who will vote for independence if they wont even make the argument that the best way to recover from this pandemic economically is with the full powers of independence. That is exactly the argument they have been making. Maybe it's not forceful enough for your liking but its disingenuous to suggest they haven't been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 6, 2021 Author Share Posted May 6, 2021 40 minutes ago, phart said: Left-right is the same as near-far entirely dependent on where you stand on how you categorise it. Indeed. Left or right depends on where you draw the centre and most people tend to draw that roughly where they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeedom Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 minutes ago, aaid said: That is exactly the argument they have been making. Maybe it's not forceful enough for your liking but its disingenuous to suggest they haven't been. uh what? The SNP have made it very clear they have no intention of talking about independence until "after the pandemic", whenever that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 6, 2021 Author Share Posted May 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, Freeedom said: uh what? The SNP have made it very clear they have no intention of talking about independence until "after the pandemic", whenever that is. Of course its difficult if not impossible for anyone to accurately predict when exactly "after the pandemic" is. The phrase Nicola Sturgeon tends to use is "after the crisis", which suggests, to me at least, a position where there is a level of normality back to people's lives, restrictions are largely lifted, there is a level of herd immunity through vaccinations and there is an ability to react quickly to suppress any outbreaks caused by new variants. It is not once the economic recovery has concluded which will take years. That's what the Unionists want to do, kick it down the road as long as possible and then find another excuse to kick it down even further. That's what their argument was over Brexit - you have to wait until you start to see the benefits of Brexit - well good luck with that. She is consistent and clear when talking about the recovery that its all about what do you want to recover to, the way things were before or to a different place and also who it should be making those choices. In both these cases independence is crucial to that. Get on top of the virus, make the choice, economic recovery as an independent nation, That's the plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Freeedom said: There are loads of folk who think the BBC are too far left or too far right that doesn't mean the BBC have the right approach. The BBC are clearly a pro establishment, right wing mouthpiece for the Tory party who do nothing but pump out propaganda all day long. The SNP have got themselves baw deep in woke identity politics, for some, being politically correct is being left wing but it is clearly the professional middle class who care about identity politics. Go into any working class area and ask someone what gender they want to identify as and they will give you a stupid look. Just because the SNP have embraced all of the politically correct nonsense does not mean they are left wing. Being left wing means supporting and pushing for the interests of the working class people in Scotland. My point is that that is your definition. Not everyone will agree with that definition. I don't think labelling things as left or right wing helps any discussion. But that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Freeedom said: But the SNP have already said that they aren't going all out for it, "after the pandemic" could be a decade from now. This virus isn't going to just disappear. Furthermore, the SNP aren't campaigning for independence they are campaigning to rejoin the EU. I am a Yes/Leaver, perhaps if they would even consider the idea of giving the people of Scotland a vote on EU membership after independence I would have been more likely to have backed them. Anyway, I cast my vote for Alba today and that was that. I would agree with that bit. But I don't think we could possibly join the EU without having a referendum about it. It would be good if the SNP would explicitly say that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 Alba have fairly be sticking two fingers up to the Covid rules and anyone who has been sticking to them. The massive non socially distanced gatherings have been all over social media including Alex Salmond. Are they also the anti-lockdown party? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 I see the Guardian reporting massive tactical voting campaign by unionists with tens of thousands of pounds spent aiming to swing things in the last few says And of course they're targeting the 'peach' vote, not caring who you vote on constituency as long as it's not SNP. Maybe not campaigning too hard in constituencies they reckon they can't win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeedom Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 28 minutes ago, Orraloon said: My point is that that is your definition. Not everyone will agree with that definition. I don't think labelling things as left or right wing helps any discussion. But that's just my opinion. Sure, different people have different ideas about what they consider to be left or right wing. For me the SNP are not left wing enough. I like what the wikipedia article defines as left wing wiki link Quote Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in critique of social hierarchy.[1][2][3][4] Left-wing politics typically involves a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.[1] According to emeritus professor of economics Barry Clark, left-wing supporters "claim that human development flourishes when individuals engage in cooperative, mutually respectful relations that can thrive only when excessive differences in status, power, and wealth are eliminated."[5] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 11 minutes ago, Freeedom said: Sure, different people have different ideas about what they consider to be left or right wing. For me the SNP are not left wing enough. I like what the wikipedia article defines as left wing wiki link Wikipedia is far too right wing for my liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 36 minutes ago, Lamia said: Alba have fairly be sticking two fingers up to the Covid rules and anyone who has been sticking to them. The massive non socially distanced gatherings have been all over social media including Alex Salmond. Are they also the anti-lockdown party? Looking forward to seeing his coupon when the results come in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 3 hours ago, slasher said: It was snowing when I got up at 5 this morning, now tipping it down here in the shire 🙄 Hopefully it doesn't affect turnout too badly. It's bound to affect it, hopefully not too badly though. You'd think holding an election in May would mean that weather wouldn't be too much of an issue, but then again, this is Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Lamia said: Alba have fairly be sticking two fingers up to the Covid rules and anyone who has been sticking to them. The massive non socially distanced gatherings have been all over social media including Alex Salmond. Are they also the anti-lockdown party? Eh.. no I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 There's parts of Labour, SNP, Green and Alba I like in this election. SNP in the end but probably for the last time unless moves are made. Certainly don't want them taking this vote as a carte blanche support for the intransigent ways some act over legitimate debate. There is an element of intolerant smearers in the party but there are serious people too. Hope they win out. Independence wasn't about cybernats and the SNP aren't all studenty weirdos either. One last heave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThistleWhistle Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 13 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said: Eh.. no I don't think so. My MSP had a stormer on this - 8 folk canvassing from all over the country less than 24 hours after reading the rules to MSP's: Mr Dey, in his role as parliamentary business minister, was responsible for briefing MSPs on the rules around campaigning earlier this month and told the Scottish Parliament "positive action" had been taken to ensure the election is safe. However, just hours after the official campaign period got underway on Thursday, the SNP minister had already broken his own government's rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Freeedom said: I don't disagree with much of what you've said but let me be clear. I am not desperate for another indyref next week, I think if we had a referendum tomorrow we would probably lose and I think the reason we would lose is because the Scottish government have wasted the last seven years not campaigning for, or even putting a coherent plan in place for independence. The people want some sort of reassurance about what the country is going to look like and none of that work has been done. The party are scared to even make any kind of argument for independence for fear of putting off their pro EU soft No middle class voters. How are the SNP going to create a country of nationalists who will vote for independence if they wont even make the argument that the best way to recover from this pandemic economically is with the full powers of independence. They are nowhere CLOSE to holding a referendum because they haven't done any of the ground work. I guarantee you there wont be a referendum in the next five years. I agree with this as well and a lot of what you have posted. There's strategy around this. The SNP don't think pushing this early will win but I agree with the Alba motto that you need to begin or you'll never arrive. It's tricky though. We sort of hope a big majority in polling is just around the corner but it's not really transpired. The SNP have failed to make the case recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 1 minute ago, ThistleWhistle said: My MSP had a stormer on this - 8 folk canvassing from all over the country less than 24 hours after reading the rules to MSP's: Mr Dey, in his role as parliamentary business minister, was responsible for briefing MSPs on the rules around campaigning earlier this month and told the Scottish Parliament "positive action" had been taken to ensure the election is safe. However, just hours after the official campaign period got underway on Thursday, the SNP minister had already broken his own government's rules. Aye, Lamia must have got the parties mixed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 6, 2021 Share Posted May 6, 2021 11 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said: There's parts of Labour, SNP, Green and Alba I like in this election. SNP in the end but probably for the last time unless moves are made. Certainly don't want them taking this vote as a carte blanche support for the intransigent ways some act over legitimate debate. There is an element of intolerant smearers in the party but there are serious people too. Hope they win out. Independence wasn't about cybernats and the SNP aren't all studenty weirdos either. One last heave. Upvote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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