Scotland's tipping point

[The_Dark_Knight]

I never thought that I would see the day that Scotland - a nation who invented (or at least was in the vicinity) football and a founder member of the sport - would be so bereft of talent that they'd have to go trawling through the third tier of English football. We're used to picking players from the Second tier of English football, and that was embarrassing enough, but to be in a position where we have to pick players from the English third tier. I think that's just a step too far for me.

I don't blame Steve Clarke. He can only pick what's there. I don't blame our players, either, it's not their fault they generally aren't very good. I blame the domestic football clubs in Scotland as well as the SFA. It's clear that we aren't producing good players. We haven't had a real stream of top players since the what, 70's/80's. In the 90s the talent was drying up, but we still have players of the calibre of Colin Hendry, John Collins, Paul Lambert, Barry Ferguson, etc. Below that we produced players like Durie, Gallagher, Burley, etc. Who are our secondary players now? O'Donnell

Each squad announcement is more soul destroying than the last.

Scottish domestic clubs and the SFA as well as the entire footballing system have to be accountable for this.

It's alright people saying "Scotland is a small nation. Do you expect us to produce world class players?". No. I really don't. I except us to produce good players who play at a top level and who are good enough to navigate successfully through a qualification campaign. That isn't too much to hope for. I'm not exactly reaching for the stars with that one.

And the "Small nation" thing makes for a cute argument. Doesn't really cut any mustard when you look at the nuts and bolts, though. Denmark has about the same population as Scotland. Didn't stop them from winning Euro '92. As well as being 13th in the world. Croatia are smaller than Scotland by 2 million and yet they produce players that play for Inter Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid, etc. As well as getting to a World Cup final and they're ranked 7th. Switzerland have 3 million more people than us, 11th in the world. I'm not even going to mention Uruguay who have 3.5million population and yet they won the World Cup twice and are 5th in the word... oh wait... I just did.  Hell, even Northern Ireland and Wales are in the top 30. With ROI just out of the 30.

There are so many apologetics within Scottish football, from the SFA, to the clubs and even to actual Scotland supporters. It's sickening. It's as if literally no one within the realms of Scottish football wants the national team to Improve. The SFA don't bring in a home grown rule because the clubs wouldn't like to be held responsible for having to coach their kids to a decent standard, and because the clubs pretty much vote in members of the SFA, such a rule will never happen.

I've never been more embarrassed being a Scotland supporter of almost 30 years. For me it's a tipping point. I stopped buying official merchandise about 6 years ago. The next step is stop going to matches.

Read it and weep:

Goalkeeper: 1 from English Championship, 2 English from League One.

Defenders: 2 from EPL, 3 from English Championship and 2 from SPL.

Midfield: 6 from EPL and 4 from SPL.

Strikers: 1 from EPL, 1 from English Championship, 1 from SPL and 1 from MLS.

[mrniaboc]

52 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

I never thought that I would see the day that Scotland - a nation who invented (or at least was in the vicinity) football and a founder member of the sport - would be so bereft of talent that they'd have to go trawling through the third tier of English football. We're used to picking players from the Second tier of English football, and that was embarrassing enough, but to be in a position where we have to pick players from the English third tier. I think that's just a step too far for me.

I don't blame Steve Clarke. He can only pick what's there. I don't blame our players, either, it's not their fault they generally aren't very good. I blame the domestic football clubs in Scotland as well as the SFA. It's clear that we aren't producing good players. We haven't had a real stream of top players since the what, 70's/80's. In the 90s the talent was drying up, but we still have players of the calibre of Colin Hendry, John Collins, Paul Lambert, Barry Ferguson, etc. Below that we produced players like Durie, Gallagher, Burley, etc. Who are our secondary players now? O'Donnell

Each squad announcement is more soul destroying than the last.

Scottish domestic clubs and the SFA as well as the entire footballing system have to be accountable for this.

It's alright people saying "Scotland is a small nation. Do you expect us to produce world class players?". No. I really don't. I except us to produce good players who play at a top level and who are good enough to navigate successfully through a qualification campaign. That isn't too much to hope for. I'm not exactly reaching for the stars with that one.

And the "Small nation" thing makes for a cute argument. Doesn't really cut any mustard when you look at the nuts and bolts, though. Denmark has about the same population as Scotland. Didn't stop them from winning Euro '92. As well as being 13th in the world. Croatia are smaller than Scotland by 2 million and yet they produce players that play for Inter Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid, etc. As well as getting to a World Cup final and they're ranked 7th. Switzerland have 3 million more people than us, 11th in the world. I'm not even going to mention Uruguay who have 3.5million population and yet they won the World Cup twice and are 5th in the word... oh wait... I just did.  Hell, even Northern Ireland and Wales are in the top 30. With ROI just out of the 30.

There are so many apologetics within Scottish football, from the SFA, to the clubs and even to actual Scotland supporters. It's sickening. It's as if literally no one within the realms of Scottish football wants the national team to Improve. The SFA don't bring in a home grown rule because the clubs wouldn't like to be held responsible for having to coach their kids to a decent standard, and because the clubs pretty much vote in members of the SFA, such a rule will never happen.

I've never been more embarrassed being a Scotland supporter of almost 30 years. For me it's a tipping point. I stopped buying official merchandise about 6 years ago. The next step is stop going to matches.

Read it and weep:

Goalkeeper: 1 from English Championship, 2 English from League One.

Defenders: 2 from EPL, 3 from English Championship and 2 from SPL.

Midfield: 6 from EPL and 4 from SPL.

Strikers: 1 from EPL, 1 from English Championship, 1 from SPL and 1 from MLS.

Counter point: There are more players from the EPL in this squad than there have been in recent history.

[Toepoke]

Says more about the strength of the English leagues to me.  Far less opportunities for Scottish players at the top end in England than there used to be.

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Toepoke

[0Neils40yarder]

So we've picked 2 keepers from below the championship.... Neither of whom will play a single minute over the next two games. Goalkeeper is clearly an issue going forward

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

The next step is stop going to matches.

Good. Can you bugger off from this board as well and give us peace? 😂

Seriously though, It’s only a game mate. It’s not the end of the world. Cheer up ffs.  

Edited August 27, 2019 by Texas Pete

[romanticscot]

8 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Good. Can you bugger off from this board as well?

TexasPete, this is not like you mate.  

[Texas Pete]

2 minutes ago, romanticscot said:

TexasPete, this is not like you mate.  

It was only a joke but I realised it sounded a bit harsh so I edited it. 

Some folk on here are ruining the place though. 

[ceudmilefailte]

24 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

So we've picked 2 keepers from below the championship.... Neither of whom will play a single minute over the next two games. Goalkeeper is clearly an issue going forward

Marshall is in shocking form, to be honest I would play Mclaughlin

[Texas Pete]

1 minute ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Marshall is in shocking form, to be honest I would play Mclaughlin

Has Marshall been making mistakes or is he just playing for a bad team?

I haven’t seen him play at all recently. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Texas Pete

[vanderark14]

I get Bain has just been dropped but is he really any worse than the wigan, Sunderland and Portsmouth keepers?

I had a look at the under 21 goalkeepers and those options arent inspiring either 

Edited August 27, 2019 by vanderark14

[Texas Pete]

12 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

I get Bain has just been dropped but is he really any worse than the wigan, Sunderland and Portsmouth keepers?

I had a look at the under 21 goalkeepers and those options arent inspiring either 

I’m fairly sure Bain is injured. He had a dislocated finger or thumb I’m sure. 

Gordon was on the bench for Celtic’s game on Sunday. 

[sbcmfc]

Only really goalkeeper is an issue.

In fact we’ve got more EPL players than I can remember. We’ve had squads 90% championship in past.

GK is a concern, I’ve never been a big Marshall fan and by all accounts he’s not playing well. There’s nobody obvious coming through I know of?

Short term I’d be on the phone to Allan Mcgregor if I was Clarke.

[exile]

3 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

I never thought that I would see the day that Scotland - a nation who invented (or at least was in the vicinity) football and a founder member of the sport - would be so bereft of talent that they'd have to go trawling through the third tier of English football. We're used to picking players from the Second tier of English football, and that was embarrassing enough, but to be in a position where we have to pick players from the English third tier. I think that's just a step too far for me.

I don't blame Steve Clarke. He can only pick what's there. I don't blame our players, either, it's not their fault they generally aren't very good. I blame the domestic football clubs in Scotland as well as the SFA. It's clear that we aren't producing good players. We haven't had a real stream of top players since the what, 70's/80's. In the 90s the talent was drying up, but we still have players of the calibre of Colin Hendry, John Collins, Paul Lambert, Barry Ferguson, etc. Below that we produced players like Durie, Gallagher, Burley, etc. Who are our secondary players now? O'Donnell

Each squad announcement is more soul destroying than the last.

Scottish domestic clubs and the SFA as well as the entire footballing system have to be accountable for this.

It's alright people saying "Scotland is a small nation. Do you expect us to produce world class players?". No. I really don't. I except us to produce good players who play at a top level and who are good enough to navigate successfully through a qualification campaign. That isn't too much to hope for. I'm not exactly reaching for the stars with that one.

And the "Small nation" thing makes for a cute argument. Doesn't really cut any mustard when you look at the nuts and bolts, though. Denmark has about the same population as Scotland. Didn't stop them from winning Euro '92. As well as being 13th in the world. Croatia are smaller than Scotland by 2 million and yet they produce players that play for Inter Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid, etc. As well as getting to a World Cup final and they're ranked 7th. Switzerland have 3 million more people than us, 11th in the world. I'm not even going to mention Uruguay who have 3.5million population and yet they won the World Cup twice and are 5th in the word... oh wait... I just did.  Hell, even Northern Ireland and Wales are in the top 30. With ROI just out of the 30.

There are so many apologetics within Scottish football, from the SFA, to the clubs and even to actual Scotland supporters. It's sickening. It's as if literally no one within the realms of Scottish football wants the national team to Improve. The SFA don't bring in a home grown rule because the clubs wouldn't like to be held responsible for having to coach their kids to a decent standard, and because the clubs pretty much vote in members of the SFA, such a rule will never happen.

I've never been more embarrassed being a Scotland supporter of almost 30 years. For me it's a tipping point. I stopped buying official merchandise about 6 years ago. The next step is stop going to matches.

Read it and weep:

Goalkeeper: 1 from English Championship, 2 English from League One.

Defenders: 2 from EPL, 3 from English Championship and 2 from SPL.

Midfield: 6 from EPL and 4 from SPL.

Strikers: 1 from EPL, 1 from English Championship, 1 from SPL and 1 from MLS.

Surely it's what the players do on the park that is what matter. Why not give the players and new manager a chance? 

It's only the goalkeeping that has the League One situation and it's always a position more likely to have anomalies. 

Any nation can have anomalies. Some quite highly ranked teams have had players from the SPL in them - can't you just imagine their supporters groaning?

If you are going to mention Wales, Northern Ireland etc why not mention that they have often traditionally played players from weaker leagues, but the point is their manager gets the most out of them. 

I am not an 'apologist' or blind optimist and no doubt we could do with a better youth supply. But is now really the time to be complaining? We have a great chance soon to test our players under the new manager and let's see what we take from it. If we fail horribly then yes that would concentrate the mind, but why bother to threaten to stop going at this moment? 

 

 

 

[ceudmilefailte]

55 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Has Marshall been making mistakes or is he just playing for a bad team?

I haven’t seen him play at all recently. 

Basing it one the usual stats source, but usually a keeper playing for a bad team  gets decent ratings as he has more to do.

A keeper getting poor ratings for a bad team is usually half the reason the team is bad.

You would think goalkeeping is the area that stats would work.

Don't usually use the SPL to back up a players claims Mclaughlin did do well for Hearts and Sunderland did not want to lose him in the summer or make any attempt to replace him.

[Texas Pete]

7 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Basing it one the usual stats source, but usually a keeper playing for a bad team  gets decent ratings as he has more to do.

A keeper getting poor ratings for a bad team is usually half the reason the team is bad.

You would think goalkeeping is the area that stats would work.

Don't usually use the SPL to back up a players claims Mclaughlin did do well for Hearts and Sunderland did not want to lose him in the summer or make any attempt to replace him.

Wigan have lost a lot of goals so that will always count against a keeper’s stats whether he’s to blame for them or not. 

I know how you love your stats but I always take them with a pinch of salt, especially for keepers. 

Marshall has normally done well for Scotland so I won’t be too worried if he starts the next two games. 

Not sure how I’ll feel if he gets injured though. McLaughlin is a decent keeper from what I’ve seen of him but not quite the same level as what we’re used to. 

I have no clue about McGillivary as I’ve never seen him play. 

[Malcolm]

Our best goalie is Alan mcgregor 

[csinclair]

The top of League One is probably better than some teams in the SPL tbh

[ceudmilefailte]

1 hour ago, Texas Pete said:

Wigan have lost a lot of goals so that will always count against a keeper’s stats whether he’s to blame for them or not. 

 

 

That is were you are wrong Wigan as a team have let in goals but Marshall as keeper has made hardly any saves. He is not dealing with enough aerial threats and his  pass percentage is low.

Butlands stats at Stoke are the same.

The other two teams in the bottom four, Huddersfield and Barnsley have much more active keepers who have a higher percentage success rate in what keepers are supposed to do than Butland and Marshall and their ratings show that.

It's only early in the season and I remember Marshall's stat's being so bad early last season I backed Hull to be relegated so he might be ready for the play offs

Whatever way you look at it we are not in a promising situation

[Texas Pete]

4 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

That is were you are wrong Wigan as a team have let in goals but Marshall as keeper has made hardly any saves. He is not dealing with enough aerial threats and his  pass percentage is low.

Butlands stats at Stoke are the same.

The other two teams in the bottom four, Huddersfield and Barnsley have much more active keepers who have a higher percentage success rate in what keepers are supposed to do than Butland and Marshall and their ratings show that.

It's only early in the season and I remember Marshall's stat's being so bad early last season I backed Hull to be relegated so he might be ready for the play offs

Whatever way you look at it we are not in a promising situation

Maybe but I know what Marshall can do so I’m not worried.

[ceudmilefailte]

10 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Maybe but I know what Marshall can do so I’m not worried.

I know what he can do too, but he isn't, so I am worried

Hopefully we will play a blinder, keepers do that out of no were some times.

[sbcmfc]

16 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Maybe but I know what Marshall can do so I’m not worried.

 

3 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

I know what he can do too, but he isn't, so I am worried

Hopefully we will play a blinder, keepers do that out of no were some times.

I didn’t even rate him when he was good. 😂

I remember having a feeling of being stuck with him as far back as 2014 when we beat Georgia at Ibrox. Strachan was loyal to him as he “had the gloves” and felt it was when, not if he gave up “the gloves”. He’s a decent keeper but not international class. Gordon’s done, Mcgregor is only top class keeper and he doesn’t want to play.

[Texas Pete]

1 minute ago, sbcmfc said:

 

I didn’t even rate him when he was good. 😂

I remember having a feeling of being stuck with him as far back as 2014 when we beat Georgia at Ibrox. Strachan was loyal to him as he “had the gloves” and felt it was when, not if he gave up “the gloves”. He’s a decent keeper but not international class. Gordon’s done, Mcgregor is only top class keeper and he doesn’t want to play.

He’s not as good as McGregor but I don’t remember him costing us any goals. 

I would probably rather have Marshall in goal than Bain (when fit) but both are solid enough keepers. 

[sbcmfc]

Just now, Texas Pete said:

He’s not as good as McGregor but I don’t remember him costing us any goals. 

I would probably rather have Marshall in goal than Bain (when fit) but both are solid enough keepers. 

I can’t remember him costing us any goals either to be fair. That was kind of my point. I was never inspired by him and never felt he was the best available, but strachan was loyal to him, so was waiting for him to fuck up, rather than just putting the best keeper in.

[Tartan Chris]

As I've said many times it's something both Irish nations do...pretty sure ROI still call up Aidan McGeady and basically half the Norn Iron squad is league one....Will Grigg, Tom Flanagan, Jordan Thompson, Liam Boyce, Paul Smyth. All in their last squad, all playing in league one. Before it's said I know they can both defend better than Scotland.

Wales actually have a couple in aswell in their squad....Ben Woodburn on loan at Oxford this season.

Of course it's not ideal but it could be worse...you think back to some of the squads in the early Vogts era that were old, berefit of quality and at the time the young players being put in were unproven like McFadden. Also not great under Burley at times.

Now at least as the second comment on the page says you have 5-6 players who are key players at their clubs in the premier league. That probably hasn't happened since the mid to late 90s tbh and comparable to many nations of similar size if not better.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Tartan Chris

[ErsatzThistle]

11 minutes ago, Tartan Chris said:

As I've said many times it's something both Irish nations do...pretty sure ROI still call up Aidan McGeady and basically half the Norn Iron squad is league one....Will Grigg, Tom Flanagan, Jordan Thompson, Liam Boyce, Paul Smyth. All in their last squad, all playing in league one. Before it's said I know they can both defend better than Scotland.

Wales actually have a couple in aswell in their squad....Ben Woodburn on loan at Oxford this season.

Of course it's not ideal but it could be worse...you think back to some of the squads in the early Vogts era that were old, berefit of quality and at the time the young players being put in were unproven like McFadden. Also not great under Burley at times.

Now at least as the second comment on the page says you have 5-6 players who are key players at their clubs in the premier league. That probably hasn't happened since the mid to late 90s tbh and comparable to many nations of similar size if not better.

ROI haven't called up McGeady in two years now.

However I agree with the gist of your post, as long as third tier players are willing to turn up and put the effort in then they should be welcomed.

Strangely, some of these people complaining about Scotland picking players from the third division of England had absolutely no problem with us picking players from a  certain Scottish team when they played in the Scottish fourth tier a few years ago.

Edited August 27, 2019 by ErsatzThistle