The 45

[thplinth]

I for one am very angry at the moment. I feel we have been cheated.

We have been cheated.

If it had been 3 choices it would have been roughly 33% for Yes 33% for No and 33% for Devo Max.

So what happens when you combine Devo Max & No into one option and call it 'No'

Duhhhhh we get shafted. And the fact they crawled over with a measly 55% is very telling. They were fukked.

Who was it who insisted we have only two choices? Cameron.

Who was it who then came up and then reintroduced the banned 3rd choice under No? Cameron.

This is blatant rigging. The No is illegitimate.

Edited September 21, 2014 by thplinth

[thplinth]

That gives him and them a credit they are not due.

Does it. Cameron insisted the 3rd option of Devo Max was removed only to reintroduce it at the last minute in a totally duplicitous and vote rigging manner to save his political skin. So with respect I'd say you be mental at this point not to be highly suspicious. Why give them any benefit of the doubt after what you have seen.

[phart]

Yeah plus Cameron doesn't need to conceive the plan just implement it.

[Charlie Endell]

Does it. Cameron insisted the 3rd option of Devo Max was removed only to reintroduce it at the last minute in a totally duplicitous and vote rigging manner to save his political skin. So with respect I'd say you be mental at this point not to be highly suspicious. Why give them any benefit of the doubt after what you have seen.

He's not that clever enough for that. He never thought it would be so close and made a tactical 'error'. According to a Tory insider he did little or no consultation on the matter - that doesn't rule out someone else's input but I think he simply got it 'wrong'.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Charlie Endell

[thplinth]

He's not that clever enough for that. He never thought it would be so close and made a tactical 'error'.

It does not matter if it was premeditated or was opportunism the conclusion is the same.

The vote was still rigged either way, the No was never a majority, it was a mix of No and Devo Max.

[thplinth]

When you offer three options but only two choices with two options under one choice...what do you think will happen?

People were voting for devo max and ticking No.

If Yes got 45% I can assure you that No got a lot less than 45% (because Devo Max was worth more than 10% of the vote in a 3 way choice.)

This is a con job. Totally illegitimate.

[exile]

Well... you could say that the Yes/No set-up never disallowed that the No side could offer tempting devolution options short of independence. And in fact they did so, earlier in the year.

However these never amounted to 'Devo Max' as I'm sure others can confirm. And they were never agreed between the parties.

Then in the last panic, Gordon Brown suggested a timetable, and the whole thing was spun as a sort of Devo Max package, as if it was the 'middle option'.

But of course as we know, those powers were never agreed, and they're still not agreed, and there's no guarantee of what will be delivered will be anything like true Devo Max - meaning, in a three way ballot, the Brown/Vow package could probably have come third. In a three way ballot with the current Brown/Vow, it would not necessarily be Scotland's favourite (depending on if a singe transferable vote...) and it would have split the anti-indy vote...

So the problem, once more, - at the risk of labouring it yet again - was the way the London media leapt on Brown's proposal, and spun it as Devo Max, uncritically, and the BBC in particular (the London presenters anyway) kept repeating that it was more powers like Devo Max. Devo Max was presented as the solution to save the union, but had no scrutiny of the white paper.

Still, people were prepared to take it on faith, even if they didn't know what exactly was being offered. It gave an excuse to vote No and still get 'something' out of the deal but with less risk.

You could do a psychological analysis on this.

The book Predictably Irrational has some examples of consumer choice behaviour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational

From memory it shows how you can 'rig' a three option scenario with A, B and C so that A looks definitely better than B, and C can't be compared with either, so people choose A just because they know, at least, it's better than B. There is not an exact parallel here, with the referendum, but you can see how it works. Another example of this type:

Status Quo - you get nothing different, you risk nothing

Devo Max - you get something (or close to something), you risk nothing (or next to nothing)

Independence - you get something, you risk something

The middle option is going to look good, the closer it gets to getting something for nothing.

From the politicians' point of view, it's just a matter of adjusting the 'something' given away as little as possible, for the voters to bite

p.s. Of course, Cameron didn't even want to offer 'something' at the start, so did not allow the middle option but when it became clear 'something was required, that was added in. The problem was the timing, as it gave people no time to evaluate how big the 'something' was, and how big the risk was - these things only now coming under scrutiny, after the event. This is certainly a problem.

Edited September 21, 2014 by exile

[runningtings]

I'll be joining Monday as soon as I have access to a pc. Mr Betty is on his way to doing the same. I can no longer sit on the sidelines. I did what I felt confident to do this time. Next I'll be better informed of the facts in order to engage with people and firmly answer their questions.

My thoughts exactly, but all this has to be forward thinking or the 55 will get pissed off that we haven't accepted the result.

[Jonny]

The 55 are already down to 50.

[Bzzzz]

Lots of good points in your post Pool, but prior to the next Scottish election is the general election next May. If everyone who voted YES gets behind SNP/Green/SSC etc , there is no way Labour in Scotland can counteract this. The emphasis must be on procuring substantially more YES MPs in the house of commons. More a statement of feeling throughout Scotland than the limited effectiveness that Scottish MPs will have. An added bonus would be the eradication of Scottish Labour which is essential.

Agree 100%. Leave Westminster to dig it's own grave for now, the immediate priority in Scotland now is to destroy labour and get the biggest possible Yes representation at Westminster.

[Hertsscot]

That gives him and them a credit they are not due.

It was a panicked last minute measure. Desperate and cynical but certainly not a long term strategy. A long term strategy would not have boxed them into the untenable position they find themselves trying to square a circle. Devo Max/English parliament/federalisation? They are about to be in an awful mess.

Don't know what to think on this one. Given the mess at the minute it looks like it wasn't thought through at all, on the other hand there was the video clip of an Alan Bissett speech where he pretty much predicted that an option that would be spun as Devo max would be back on the agenda..

[weekevie04]

Don't know what to think on this one. Given the mess at the minute it looks like it wasn't thought through at all, on the other hand there was the video clip of an Alan Bissett speech where he pretty much predicted that an option that would be spun as Devo max would be back on the agenda..

From the early indications, it seems so many of the Yes voters are now wanting to fire on.

Many judging from Social Media want to punish Labour as well and Tommy Sheridan's suggestion of a 'YesAlliance'.

Labour could be in for a hammering, if the interest in this continues with many people.

The early indications seem it does with the huge numbers of new SNP, Greens, SNP members.

Edited September 22, 2014 by weekevie04

[thplinth]

I thought at the time is was very odd that Cameron insisted it be two options on the ballot and not three.

And then the week before the vote he comes up, shitting himself with panic, with the banned third option and attaches it to No.

And people think this is just a coincidence?!

Really?!

We were conned.

Three options on a two choice ballot with two options under No - there was only going to ever be one result there. But I am still amazed we managed get 45.

The referendum was cheated- you either have 3 options and 3 choices or 2 options and 2 choices but NEVER 3 options and 2 choices with 2 options under No.

People were voting for Devo Max and ticking No - how can that ever be right?

The No result is bogus and illegitimate.

New referendum. Demand it.

[thplinth]

We do not even know what No really got % wise as it is intermingled with Devo Max.

You can be sure it would not have been over 50% as that gives Devo Max only 5%.

The true No vote was way below 50%, way below 45%. Ask yourself what would No have got had all 3 options been properly listed out? 25% maybe?

It is a fake No. 55% my arse.

[thplinth]

I think it would be a good idea to get some sort online petition started saying the Vote was rigged by Cameron using the trick detailed above and that this effectively renders it unacceptable and void.

First of all it would publicly define how they rigged the vote to 'No' (although it is not really No) and second it would start to build pressure...

(Be happy to help out with a draft if anyone has any ideas on how best to do this.)

[thplinth]

What they did was outrageous. So let's out the rage, nurture it, like a little fire...

[redstevie007]

I think it would be a good idea to get some sort online petition started saying the Vote was rigged by Cameron using the trick detailed above and that this effectively renders it unacceptable and void.

First of all it would publicly define how they rigged the vote to 'No' (although it is not really No) and second it would start to build pressure...

(Be happy to help out with a draft if anyone has any ideas on how best to do this.)

Think The 45 are doing that or there's another group who are actually in the throes of setting themselves up as a party - The Scottish Independence Party - who I think are doing the same/similar.

[thplinth]

Think The 45 are doing that or there's another group who are actually in the throes of setting themselves up as a party - The Scottish Independence Party - who I think are doing the same/similar.

Yes not 100% sure who I would petition and for what but my initial thoughts are petition the SNP for a new vote ASAP.

Cobbling it together from the bits above something along the lines of...

The SNP originally asked for three options on the referendum ballot, Yes, No & Devo Max.

The Prime Minister of the UK, David Cameron, however refused and forced the SNP to have only two options only on the ballot, Yes or No. Devo Max was banned from the ballot by Cameron.

Then just seven days before the referendum vote was due the same UK Prime Minister arrived in Scotland with the heads of the other political parties and reintroduced this previously banned third option now called Devo 'The Vow'.

But instead of offering a third choice on the ballot for this third option the Prime Minister said you will get this third option if you vote No.

This was unacceptable and corrupted the outcome of the referendum as you either have three options and three choices on the ballot or two options and two choices but you NEVER have three options but only two choices with 2 options being listed under one choice (the No).

This duplicitous act by Cameron, first to ban Devo Max and then later reintroduce it by the back door at the last minute under the No box, was designed to produce a fake swing to No. People were voting for Devo ‘The Vow’ yet ticking ‘No’. How can that ever be right, ever acceptable?

The fact is we do not even know what the real NO vote was as it was a mixture of No’s and Devo ‘The Vow’ votes.

For the reasons above the No result is illegitimate.

We the undersigned demand that the SNP declare the No result illegitimate and seek a new referendum at the earliest opportunity.

[redstevie007]

Yes not 100% sure who I would petition and for what but my initial thoughts are petition the SNP for a new vote ASAP.

Cobbling it together from the bits above something along the lines of...

My only issue is how it looks. I've no argument that we were cheated and lied to, plain and simple. The cat's out of the bag though, and there's no doubt in my mind that we'll return a huge SNP majority with a mandate for another Referendum far sooner than anticipated, so why not (appear to at least) accept the result with dignity, however galling, and await our next chance.

That said, if the general view is that we should petition for an immediate re-vote, I'll sign up regardless of my reservations

As for who to send it to, the Party Secretary?

[Pool Q]

Finally managed to get my SNP membership application done this morning.

[1ANDYP]

I agree we have to accept the outcome and move on and be ready for it the next time. For some there were too many unanswered questions and doubts. ie currency and pensions and threats from employers ,As I believe many wanted to vote yes but were not willing take the risk. Can you imagine the humiliation if we had another vote soon and lost. Westminster will dig its own grave and the young folk of this country will be more self confident than some of the selfish old gits who still think they are living in 1945.

[thplinth]

My only issue is how it looks. I've no argument that we were cheated and lied to, plain and simple. The cat's out of the bag though, and there's no doubt in my mind that we'll return a huge SNP majority with a mandate for another Referendum far sooner than anticipated, so why not (appear to at least) accept the result with dignity, however galling, and await our next chance.

That said, if the general view is that we should petition for an immediate re-vote, I'll sign up regardless of my reservations

As for who to send it to, the Party Secretary?

You can do an epetition at change.org I see. You address it to the Scottish National Party and then it offers you ways to publicise it on facebook (shudder) and other forms of social media. I am very unsocial and do not have any of that pish but.

The real point of it is to get people into realizing they were not losers but that they were cheated.

3 options on the ballot and two of them under NO. That is bull$hit.

[thplinth]

Maybe also ask these people how you can have 3 options on the ballot and two of them under NO and one of them introduced at the last minute by the PM?

Are they not supposed to make sure the question is fairly asked?

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[biffer]

Never had a tattoo, but thinking about a subtle little 45 somewhere. A permanent reminder of what were trying to achieve and how close to it we are.

[Toepoke]

I agree we have to accept the outcome and move on and be ready for it the next time. For some there were too many unanswered questions and doubts. ie currency and pensions and threats from employers ,As I believe many wanted to vote yes but were not willing take the risk. Can you imagine the humiliation if we had another vote soon and lost. Westminster will dig its own grave and the young folk of this country will be more self confident than some of the selfish old gits who still think they are living in 1945.

Good post. Agreed. Westminster have already cut the soil and are digging furiously...