buckielugger Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 On Saturday, June 11, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Barney Rubble said: And your point, which your rant never got round to sharing with us, is?????? Im sure Im writing In english...point was once again that the eu commissioners are unelected and undemocratic. Simple enough point for u ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Good to see Remain politicians co-operating here. Lib Dem-SNP-Tory-Labour https://t.co/GXcs35Tcik Campaigning suspended by both sides after MP murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckielugger Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 On Monday, June 13, 2016 at 3:56 AM, DonnyTJS said: I was wondering the same thing. I've also been thd what happened after the Danish revinected MaastScotlanricht Treaty ratification in a referendum. The treaty was tweaked and there was a second referendum the following year that favoured ratification. An In / Out referendum is a bit different but I could still see some hurriedly cobbled together fudge and a second 'Did You Really Mean It?' referendum in the event of a win for Leave. Most likely scenario would be a general election (Cameron would be toast after a Leave vote), with potentially the Conservatives splitting into two separate parties. An election win for a Remain coalition would enable a second referendum following some more or less cosmetic tweaks to the UK's membership. A Leave result and Cameron's resignation wouldn't necessitate a general election constitutionally, but it could well happen, particularly if the Conservatives split irrevocably over his successor. I can see the EU thinking it worthwhile to chuck in a couple of concessions, as they did for the Danish between '92 & '93. Referendums are a daft way to run owt, to be honest. Excellent post. Referenda In general are not great. The question put Is always too narrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckielugger Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, Alan said: Good to see Remain politicians co-operating here. Lib Dem-SNP-Tory-Labour https://t.co/GXcs35Tcik Campaigning suspended by both sides after MP murder. Jeez how awful....some seriously mad people about . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 2 hours ago, buckielugger said: Im sure Im writing In english...point was once again that the eu commissioners are unelected and undemocratic. Simple enough point for u ? EU Commissioners are appointed by a consensus of the Member States, therefore are not unelected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 17 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said: EU Commissioners are appointed by a consensus of the Member States, therefore are not unelected. Aren't the Lords appointed by democratically elected politicians - does that mean they are 'not unelected'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, exile said: Aren't the Lords appointed by democratically elected politicians - does that mean they are 'not unelected'? Not all, but I'll take your point - so are our senior civil servants. Think about it, how practical would it be to have an election about every civil servant (EU or national)? That's why we elect MPs and Governments. If you don't like the EU Commissioners have a word with Cameron. Oh, and one other conveniently forgotten thing - Juncker was voted in ahead of..................Tony Blair. Proof that the Member States DO work. Edited June 16, 2016 by Barney Rubble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said: Not all, but I'll take your point - so are our senior civil servants. Think about it, how practical would it be to have an election about every civil servant (EU or national)? That's why we elect MPs and Governments. If you don't like the EU Commissioners have a word with Cameron. Oh, and one other conveniently forgotten thing - Juncker was voted in ahead of..................Tony Blair. Proof that the Member States DO work. I wasn't following the whole thread... my point was as much to say that many pro-Brexit people (the loudest of whom are Tories and Kippers) complain about the undemocratic nature of the EU (eg Commission/ers) but forget to criticse the House of Lords on the same grounds. e.g. the absurdity of Lord Lawson? Edited June 16, 2016 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, exile said: I wasn't following the whole thread... my point was as much to say that many pro-Brexit people (the loudest of whom are Tories and Kippers) complain about the undemocratic nature of the EU (eg Commission/ers) but forget to criticse the House of Lords on the same grounds. Ah OK, in which case I apologize. I am fully onside with your view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckielugger Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Barney Rubble said: EU orwiC. ommissioners are appointed by a sensusinof time Member States, andtherefore are not unelected. Yes they are appointed !!! Precisely...therefore that Is unelected. We dont have european Wide elections for commissioners or president . And yes I despise most of the politiians on the brexit side...I find their persistant anti Immigration stance particularly nasty. I would like a europe where the formal (and currently very over bureaucratic and very stagnant) Union Is dissolved and all countries share a simple free trade area with everyone free to move and work wherever they choose In the continent. So a future Independent Scotland or Catalonia or Corsica etc would simply be another country In europe and not have to "apply" to join any highly restrictive club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, buckielugger said: Yes they are appointed !!! Precisely...therefore that Is unelected. We dont have european Wide elections for commissioners or president . And yes I despise most of the politiians on the brexit side...I find their persistant anti Immigration stance particularly nasty. I would like a europe where the formal (and currently very over bureaucratic and very stagnant) Union Is dissolved and all countries share a simple free trade area with everyone free to move and work wherever they choose In the continent. So a future Independent Scotland or Catalonia or Corsica etc would simply be another country In europe and not have to "apply" to join any highly restrictive club Not biting, OK. There's nothing perfect about either campaign. John Lambie would be a better PM than the crap that has run this shambles. You'll be voting to stay in and change the status quo to achieve the Europe you describe above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckielugger Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 No I wont be voting to stay in. The EU is unreformable as it stands. The veto system inevitably prevents any sensible change let alone any radical change.Unfortunately Cameron has (deliberately) only give two crude choices in this referendum. Either stay with what we have or leave for good. Neither is a good choice. But as a vote to stay will leave us (and importantly leave the rest of europe too) in a never ending bureaucratic mess, maybe for the whole continents sake a leave vote is needed, if only to shake up the system and hopefully trigger something better for everyone. Plus as an added bonus it willhhopefully destroy Cameron's career and also lead to a permanent split in the tory party. And there is the added (but probably small) chance that a 2nd indy refererendum might follow for Scotland. That all said I still haven't made up my mind to vote to leave or just spoil my ballot paper. If the leave campaign piss me off enough in the final days then a spoilt ballot it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86glebestreet Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, buckielugger said: No I wont be voting to stay in. The EU is unreformable as it stands. The veto system inevitably prevents any sensible change let alone any radical change.Unfortunately Cameron has (deliberately) only give two crude choices in this referendum. Either stay with what we have or leave for good. Neither is a good choice. But as a vote to stay will leave us (and importantly leave the rest of europe too) in a never ending bureaucratic mess, maybe for the whole continents sake a leave vote is needed, if only to shake up the system and hopefully trigger something better for everyone. Plus as an added bonus it willhhopefully destroy Cameron's career and also lead to a permanent split in the tory party. And there is the added (but probably small) chance that a 2nd indy refererendum might follow for Scotland. That all said I still haven't made up my mind to vote to leave or just spoil my ballot paper. If the leave campaign piss me off enough in the final days then a spoilt ballot it is. The Tory party are going to be fcuked for a long time, especially if there is a vote to remain as many of their voters will start voting for UKIP giving them more MPs .Can't see there being another Tory majority in government . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 48 minutes ago, 86glebestreet said: The Tory party are going to be fcuked for a long time, especially if there is a vote to remain as many of their voters will start voting for UKIP giving them more MPs .Can't see there being another Tory majority in government . Neither did anyone in May this year. 19 years first time with majority government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilser Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Johnny Marr (@Johnny_Marr) 16/06/2016, 16:02 On the left: an actual Nazi propaganda film On the right: Nigel Farage, today pic.twitter.com/bSOK9veIBI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Whether this outrageous propaganda will be a disastrous own goal for the leave campaign remains to be seen. It is clear that they are mainly focusing on immigration and the inbuilt prejudices people have in an attempt to counter the economic scaremongering by the remain camp. It has possibly crossed the line with many undecided voters however it probably wont get the mainstream media scrutiny it should have because of other events today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Return of Yermaw Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 10 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: Whether this outrageous propaganda will be a disastrous own goal for the leave campaign remains to be seen. It is clear that they are mainly focusing on immigration and the inbuilt prejudices people have in an attempt to counter the economic scaremongering by the remain camp. It has possibly crossed the line with many undecided voters however it probably wont get the mainstream media scrutiny it should have because of other events today I don't see how that poster is the tipping point that many believe it is. As far as I can see the "reasonably" balanced Brexit voters (whoever they may be and I do use the phrase carefully with quotations as I have no evidence to suggest any of Brexiters are like this) pretty much ignore the radical elements that sit alongside them and will ignore this. Personally I don't see how they can but it is clear many or at least some do - more generally, I don't see how the image is any different than a lot of the xenophobic guff on immigration that has previously been uttered - why is a poster worse than a soundbite? The other hardcore element of Brexit who are not reasonable or balanced in any shape or for will lap it up. As for the mythical undecided voters* who always come up in polls and appear in audience debates - utter pish. They have made up their mind but love the attention their position provides them with. If 14 days before the referndum, they are still genuinely undecided on something like this (or the independence referendum) then the should lose their vote due to their diminished mental capacity. *I liken these people to those who don't have TVs. "How do you find out if someone doesn't have a TV? Don't worry, they will tell you within 2 minutes of meeting them". If someone is "undecided" (they are not in reality) they will let you know pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, Return of Yermaw said: I don't see how that poster is the tipping point that many believe it is. As far as I can see the "reasonably" balanced Brexit voters (whoever they may be and I do use the phrase carefully with quotations as I have no evidence to suggest any of Brexiters are like this) pretty much ignore the radical elements that sit alongside them and will ignore this. Personally I don't see how they can but it is clear many or at least some do - more generally, I don't see how the image is any different than a lot of the xenophobic guff on immigration that has previously been uttered - why is a poster worse than a soundbite? The other hardcore element of Brexit who are not reasonable or balanced in any shape or for will lap it up. As for the mythical undecided voters* who always come up in polls and appear in audience debates - utter pish. They have made up their mind but love the attention their position provides them with. If 14 days before the referndum, they are still genuinely undecided on something like this (or the independence referendum) then the should lose their vote due to their diminished mental capacity. *I liken these people to those who don't have TVs. "How do you find out if someone doesn't have a TV? Don't worry, they will tell you within 2 minutes of meeting them". If someone is "undecided" (they are not in reality) they will let you know pretty quickly. I think things like that poster - sadly juxtaposed with the tragic murder of Jo Cox - will make some undecideds who were leaning towards Leave have second thoughts. The ones that are already convinced, I don't think it will make much difference. I don't agree with you about there being no real undecideds. I was out with four friends on Saturday night, four out of five of us were strong remain and the fifth was a genuine don't know. He's an intelligent guy with a good job and the last time we discussed this in January he was leaning towards Leave, so it's not that he hasn't been thinking about it. There are also people who only now are starting to think about it. I agree with you about "don't knows" on any TV debates, I think a large number are plants - from both sides - especially anyone who says they've now decided based on the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Q Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, aaid said: I think things like that poster - sadly juxtaposed with the tragic murder of Jo Cox - will make some undecideds who were leaning towards Leave have second thoughts. The ones that are already convinced, I don't think it will make much difference. I don't agree with you about there being no real undecideds. I was out with four friends on Saturday night, four out of five of us were strong remain and the fifth was a genuine don't know. He's an intelligent guy with a good job and the last time we discussed this in January he was leaning towards Leave, so it's not that he hasn't been thinking about it. There are also people who only now are starting to think about it. I agree with you about "don't knows" on any TV debates, I think a large number are plants - from both sides - especially anyone who says they've now decided based on the debate. I remember Rory Bremner being presented as an undecided on a debate during the independence referendum debate, which was about as dishonest as you can get. Barely a day later he was on another debate show representing the No side. And I'm not saying both sides weren't at it. There are genuine undecideds out there though. It is the sort of issue that most people, if they are honest, can hardly be 100% on. There is just so much that is wrong with the EU, although, on balance, I believe it is better than the alternative. Edited June 17, 2016 by Pool Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 There are a whole load of folk who haven't even decided if they will bother voting or not yet. Loads of them won't decide until polling day and the decision may well be weather dependent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 thats a local snp Aberdeenshire councillor resigned due the the fact that the snp does not represent the views of many of their voters,, i totally agree with him and i worry that this stance has driven away snp voters,, i cant for the life of me understand why the snp havent put out a few "token" MSP's or MP's for that matter who support brexit,,, Elidgh whiteford is a fantastic MP for banff and buchan and i know she has her reservations about the EU,, it would have been a good move for her to come out for brexit,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 8 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said: thats a local snp Aberdeenshire councillor resigned due the the fact that the snp does not represent the views of many of their voters,, i totally agree with him and i worry that this stance has driven away snp voters,, i cant for the life of me understand why the snp havent put out a few "token" MSP's or MP's for that matter who support brexit,,, Elidgh whiteford is a fantastic MP for banff and buchan and i know she has her reservations about the EU,, it would have been a good move for her to come out for brexit,,, which one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 15 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said: thats a local snp Aberdeenshire councillor resigned due the the fact that the snp does not represent the views of many of their voters,, i totally agree with him and i worry that this stance has driven away snp voters,, i cant for the life of me understand why the snp havent put out a few "token" MSP's or MP's for that matter who support brexit,,, Elidgh whiteford is a fantastic MP for banff and buchan and i know she has her reservations about the EU,, it would have been a good move for her to come out for brexit,,, You want SNP MSPs to pretend to support brexit even if they don't want it to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 41 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said: thats a local snp Aberdeenshire councillor resigned due the the fact that the snp does not represent the views of many of their voters,, i totally agree with him and i worry that this stance has driven away snp voters,, i cant for the life of me understand why the snp havent put out a few "token" MSP's or MP's for that matter who support brexit,,, Elidgh whiteford is a fantastic MP for banff and buchan and i know she has her reservations about the EU,, it would have been a good move for her to come out for brexit,,, Ah, the poor old fishermen - like this guy http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/farages-brexit-flotilla-boat-involved-in-63-million-fishing-fraud-a7083231.html or this guy http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/property/news/11288970/Fishing-skipper-fined-over-multi-million-pound-black-fish-scam-buys-Scotlands-most-expensive-house.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Interesting. http://archive.is/WJE2J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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