Ally Bongo Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) They want a war more than anything else. That's the purpose of the acts of terror. Why do you want to give them what they want? Who says i want to give them what they want ? My post is in response to those that think we can "talk" our way out of this Edited November 16, 2015 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Who says i want to give them what they want ? My post is in response to those that think we can "talk" our way out of this More strategic talking rather than directly talking. At the moment you can't talk to them. That's not to say that we in the west can't make them talk. With a united opposition in Syria (including Assad) fighting against ISIS. They may splinter or get destroyed. Talk to the people funding them (Saudi oligarchs) through the Saudi government. Talk to Isreal (and not continually stay silent through their atrocities), talk to Hezbollah (through Iran) to not attack each other. That's what I meant be talking. We need total regional alignment towards the strategic aim of destroying ISIS. Then recognising that once destroyed the fighters will have to go back to living with the rest of the world. So there has to be a plan for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Those that think we need more of the same should read this. 14 years of a war on terror and things are arguably worse. http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/november/14/paris-you-don-t-want-to-read-this/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Some people on here are far too naive ISIS ultimate objective is to maintain and expand it's self declared caliphate Part of creating that caliphate means eradicating everyone who does not adhere to their rule of "convert or die" How exactly do you counter that with diplomatic talks ? It's akin to appeasing the Nazi's in the 1930s The biggest problem is that it should be the states of the middle east that resolve this themselves but they are that shit scared of internal revolt by ISIS supporters that they cant or wont. Assume this was partly in response to my post. Wasn't suggesting direct talks at this stage. If you re-read it I suggest it might take a lifetime or several to get to that point, if at all. As BH suggests, strategic talks required starting now. Problem remains that all the while you have Western expansionism - strategically, based on resources etc - among other things, it's incompatible with pursuing peace in the region, which undermines these aims. Hence the need to re-imagine foreign policy, which as things stand is even more unlikely. This is obviously a massive over-simplification for the purposes of posting on message board. It's decades of subjecting people to this approach to the world, which plays a part in the creation of groups like ISIS along with regional sectarianism, political vacuums, regional persecution, powerplays etc. and a mass of stuff behind the scenes, which is not part of the official narrative. Continuing in this same vein, ad infinitum, will only lead to further radicalisation, keep a steady stream of willing parties joining the ranks of ISIS both abroad and at home, lead to more acts of terrorism/atrocities in the West. You'll never annihilate this threat through bombing, just continue motivating, fuelling hatred. If the shoe was on the other foot and it was UK subjected to decades of interference, military interventions from overseas and you'd borne witness to that, I'd argue you might be more willing to answer a call to arms when it came, not less. Not justifying anything here, or saying this is the only motivation/influence at play and don't want to fuel hysteria, just trying to analyse and look honestly at all possible influences. Without this recognition, I can't see how anything changes. Murder is murder no matter in whose name or policy it's carried out.(clipped tone as on phone). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewelk Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Those that think we need more of the same should read this. 14 years of a war on terror and things are arguably worse. http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/november/14/paris-you-don-t-want-to-read-this/ Worse for most of us. But a lot of people (not too far from the decision makers) are considerably richer now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Worse for most of us. But a lot of people (not too far from the decision makers) are considerably richer now. Well exactly. We have to look at this through the backdrop of looking at what the definition of success is for those setting the agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Some people on here are far too naive ISIS ultimate objective is to maintain and expand it's self declared caliphate Part of creating that caliphate means eradicating everyone who does not adhere to their rule of "convert or die" How exactly do you counter that with diplomatic talks ? It's akin to appeasing the Nazi's in the 1930s The biggest problem is that it should be the states of the middle east that resolve this themselves but they are that shit scared of internal revolt by ISIS supporters that they cant or wont. Wait i thought we were talking about deporting british citizens, as opposed to what should be done in the Caliphate. We should step back, let Hezbollah, Iranian guard, syrian army take them out with Russian Assistance. Instead of giving hundreds of millions of dollars of "non-lethal" aid to "moderate" rebels (you know the ones who ate babies hearts all jacked up on amphetamines) I'm not sure where you are getting the last line from. Iranians are on the ground, as are hezbollah. Sure Qatar the saudi;s aren't they're running guns to the rebels. ISIS are privateers wired up on speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Farrington Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Surely the hippies suggesting an open door policy for refugees in the UK have now had a suitable reality check? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Surely the hippies suggesting an open door policy for refugees in the UK have now had a suitable reality check? How? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Zeppelin Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Surely the hippies suggesting an open door policy for refugees in the UK have now had a suitable reality check? Hippies??? Are you 12? If anything this should give people an insight into who and what those refugees are fleeing from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred_Zeppelin Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 They will have been dropped with pinpoint accuracy without killing any innocent civilians though. Like they were in Iraq? Hardly the same thing. Targeted attacks on known terrorists, not quite the same as indiscriminate shooting at civilians, suicide bombings and executing people at a concert. There are civilians in Raqqa, bombs are even more indiscriminate than rifles. Hardly bombing in Paris. Gunmen open fire at point blank range and killed at will. I really don't get the comparison you are trying to make. I personally don't think the air campaign is effective but if you read the reports it then the current expansion of the ISIS campaign is linked to the gradual erosion of their infrastructure . Raqqah is seen as the capital of the ISIS Caliphate. Hardly surprising it is been targeted. There were bombs in Paris too, at the Stade De France. I don't see what bombing Raqqa is going to achieve other than keeping the cycle going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Farrington Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Hippies??? Are you 12? If anything this should give people an insight into who and what those refugees are fleeing from. Refugees or sleepers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brummie Hibs Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Oh FFS https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-observe-a-minutes-silence-for-victims-of-the-paris-terrorist-attacks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekfaejapan Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Oh FFS https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-observe-a-minutes-silence-for-victims-of-the-paris-terrorist-attacks Predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Who says i want to give them what they want ? My post is in response to those that think we can "talk" our way out of this Can you point out the posts advocating talking to ISIS? I've been looking for them and cannot locate them on here. You seem to be stridently arguing against it, so i assume you know where they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Refugees or sleepers? It was French/Belgium Nationals. You need to turn up the resolution on your thinking, atm everything is just blurring into one thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 People are being manipulated into supporting a Christian or European war against Islam (they even called it the Islamic State so there would be no doubt who you were at war with ) . They have been manoeuvring for this for at least one decade but I think it goes far deeper back. How long have the Saudi's been pumping billions into schools of hate all around the world? At least that far back. Judging by the reaction on here mostly I would say they will succeed in their goal.I said a while back that racism or specifically islamphobia was going to be normalized. This is what we are seeing. Europe is turning into Greater Israel... same fears same attitudes to muslims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 People are being manipulated into supporting a Christian or European war against Islam (they even called it the Islamic State so there would be no doubt who you were at war with ) . They have been manoeuvring for this for at least one decade but I think it goes far deeper back. How long have the Saudi's been pumping billions into schools of hate all around the world? At least that far back. Judging by the reaction on here mostly I would say they will succeed in their goal.I said a while back that racism or specifically islamphobia was going to be normalized. This is what we are seeing. Europe is turning into Greater Israel... same fears same attitudes to muslims. Used "Viet Cong" in the same manner, not an actual name they gave themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekfaejapan Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I said a while back that racism or specifically islamphobia was going to be normalized. This is what we are seeing. Europe is turning into Greater Israel... same fears same attitudes to muslims. Spot on...Some of the Anti Islam stuff I've seen posted online from folk is pretty disturbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Farrington Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 It was French/Belgium Nationals. You need to turn up the resolution on your thinking, atm everything is just blurring into one thing. One of the bombers was found with a Syrian passport & entered Europe as a migrant via Leros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Daft Q but did ISIS call themselves that or was it a name given by someone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekfaejapan Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/11/16/record-number-of-terrorism-experts-report-for-duty-in-internet-comment-sections/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) One of the bombers was found with a Syrian passport & entered Europe as a migrant via Leros. you sure about that? Entered as a migrant part, I heard he just had a Syrian Passport. Ahmed Almohamed is the name i believe. That's assuming it's not a stolen identity. Like loads of other attacks. May very well be sleeper, but until we have all the the information, no point making snap judgments, that just entrenches your view when more info comes. Edited November 16, 2015 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parklife Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 One of the bombers was found with a Syrian passport & entered Europe as a migrant via Leros. Hasn't that passport already been confirmed as a fake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 Daft Q but did ISIS call themselves that or was it a name given by someone else? Long explanation here. http://motherboard.vice.com/read/why-isis-isnt-isis-or-islamic-state-and-what-we-should-really-call-it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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