phart Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I forgot about Lobster magazine piece on Skinner as he worked as Tony Blair and Alistair Campbells' mole inside the NEC. http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/free/lobster69/lob69-sailing-close.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Yeah, still showing teaching some of you how to reason properly. Pardon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 James McEnaney: Why the SNP voting against fox hunting would not only be hypocrisy, it would be grave naivety Lecturer James McEnaney says the SNP can't have it both ways - if the repeal of fox hunting has no effect on Scotland, Scottish MPs should not seek to impose their will on regions of the UK that didn't vote for them, or the consequences of such political tactics could be worrying FOX HUNTING is, without doubt, an utterly abhorrent activity which had no place in the 20th Century never mind the 21st. The notion that the merciless pursuit of a terrified animal by packs of howling dogs and braying hordes on horseback is viewed by anyone as an important tradition or, worse, a jolly-good day out for the family, is utterly sickening. Nobody with even a hint of compassion should have any qualms about unequivocally denouncing such barbarism. Furthermore, that any government - regardless of the colour of their logo or the fragility of their majority - would attach more importance to the brutal, bloody dismemberment of a defenceless animal than, say, the thousands of children being fed by foodbanks is a scathing indictment of its misguided priorities. There are a number of different arguments in favour of an SNP intervention on this issue, and all are flawed. The plan to reintroduce fox hunting is wrong. End of. Nonetheless, SNP MPs absolutely should not vote against the repeal of the Hunting Act (2004) when the Conservative government moves to do so. Over recent days there have been increasingly strident calls for the SNP to abandon its policy of abstaining on English-only issues in order to prevent the return of fox hunting in the English countryside. There are a number of different arguments in favour of an SNP intervention on this issue, and all are flawed. Firstly, there is the suggestion that animal rights is an issue of such importance that Scottish MPs exerting influence on English constituencies can be justified. In reality this is little more than an emotional appeal on behalf of the poor English foxes. Yes, this sort of blood-sport is indefensible, but that is not the issue here. Regardless of the morality there is no doubt that any attempt by English MPs to exert authority over matters devolved to Scotland would be met with entirely justifiable outrage. We cannot have it both ways. No, fox hunting is not "progressive" but neither is blatant hypocrisy. Secondly, some have argued that an abstention on this issue would be a betrayal of the SNP’s campaign commitment to help drive progressive change across Britain. What, these voices ask, is progressive about standing back and allowing fox hunting? In deeply simplified terms there would be merit in this argument but as fox hunting is not a whole-UK issue then this particular accusation is not relevant. No, fox hunting is not "progressive" (which is of course why it was banned in Scotland two years before England and Wales) but neither is blatant hypocrisy. Third, and most worryingly, is the position that there is a symbolic imperative behind any SNP action against the repeal of the act. This argument - that 'a vote for the foxes is a vote against those Tory bastards' - is not just pathetically juvenile, it is also likely to be entirely counter-productive for the independence movement as a whole. This is because this third argument ignores the biggest danger of SNP involvement on this issue - it is yet another 'Tory trap'. David Cameron has a parliamentary majority which, though slim, could allow him to push ahead with English Votes for English Laws (EVEL) and, in a worst-case scenario, cut Scottish MPs out of vital decisions in the House of Commons. An SNP intervention on the repeal of the Hunting Act would write Cameron’s speech (to England) for him: "It is clear that the SNP cannot be trusted, and the democratic rights of the people of England cannot be dependent upon mere conventions and agreements which other parties will break when it suits them. It is crucial that we press on with the implementation of English Votes for English Laws." With that sort of wind in their sails there will be nothing to stop the Tories from using a definition of 'English Laws' which would be disastrous for Scotland, namely one where issues which do affect Scotland (albeit in an indirect manner) are decided purely on the votes of MPs from south of the border. With that sort of wind in their sails there will be nothing to stop the Tories from using a definition of 'English Laws' which would be disastrous for Scotland. This would leave Scotland’s public services at the perpetual mercy of English privatisations and cuts to public spending, further damaging the lives of those already suffering due to the ideological imposition of austerity economics. Their shock election victory has left the Conservative battle-station fully operational and they will be more than happy to seize upon the hubris and hypocrisy of any SNP intervention on this issue. The SNP must adhere to its long-standing (and entirely correct) position of not voting on issues which do not impact upon Scotland. As recently as February this year Nicola Sturgeon made clear that this policy would continue, writing in the Guardian that where "any issue is genuinely 'English-only', with no impact on Scotland, the case for EVEL can be made." She also provided one specific example of an issue which would legitimately be seen as a matter for English and Welsh MPs - that’s right, fox hunting. The simple fact is that it is wrong for Scottish MPs to vote on issues which are entirely devolved and where there is also no question of even any indirect impact on Scotland. We railed against the obscenity of England imposing governments we didn’t vote for, yet now we are to support the supposed right of Scottish MPs to impose policy on the rest of the UK? How exactly could we continue to make the democratic argument for Scottish independence whilst simultaneously sticking two fingers up to the very principle upon which it is founded? We railed against the obscenity of England imposing governments we didn’t vote for, yet now we are to support the supposed right of Scottish MPs to impose policy on the rest of the UK? What it comes down to is this: if you believe that Scottish MPs should influence the legality of fox hunting in England and Wales, then English and Welsh MPs should have an equal say on fox hunting in Scotland. Any other position is merely rank hypocrisy, no matter how you package it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Read that earlier. A very good piece, I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 it looks like a big huge trap to me, this issue. like a massive glaring one that you'd see in a cartoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErsatzThistle Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 If you watch todays swearing in of the MPs on BBC Iplayer from about 01:25:10 and turn the sound up a little, then you can hear a couple of patronising bastards (I think it's a Tory MP called Ben Gummer & a Labour MP called Barry Sherman) who are about to take the oath, moaning about "the Scots Nats being dotted around" and "the little twenty year old being behind Harriet Harman". I hope "the little twenty year old" has their cards marked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 it looks like a big huge trap to me, this issue. like a massive glaring one that you'd see in a cartoon.Fawkes hunting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 it looks like a big huge trap to me, this issue. like a massive glaring one that you'd see in a cartoon. We all know how the Tories love their big American corporations. Maybe Acme have been doing some consultancy work for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 There are two separate issues here. One is the foxes. Even if Scotland was independent, I wouldn't want our politicians to be so isolationist that they refuse to use any influence (however minor that influence may be) to try to encourage other countries to the right thing. Training packs of hounds which have no other purpose than to chase down and rip live foxes to pieces is clearly wrong. Our Scottish MPs are currently in a position to try to stop that happening in England. IMO, It would be morally wrong for our MPs not to use that influence. They should not stand back and watch it happen when there is something they could do to try to stop it. The second issue is the SNP tactics in achieving the ultimate goal of Independence. I would actually welcome the the Tories introducing legislation to enforce EVEL. The more anti- Scotland that legislation is the better, as far as I'm concerned. One good way to persuade folk to vote for independence is for Westminster to discriminate against Scotland. The more blatant that discrimination is the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 This "issue" is why the media in this country is absolutely corrupt. The English media regurgitates the foxhunting story. ( i believe it was the Torygraph as long ago as the 8th February that first ran with it ) A story about a suggestion in the Tory manifesto that they might repeal the fox hunting ban at some undisclosed time in this parliament. Now just think about the things in the Tory manifesto that the media could be running wall to wall stories about - not to mention whats actually happening in the World right now. Proposed Welfare cap No housing benefit for those on jobseekers allowance Further attacks on trade unions Cutting disability benefits Boundary review No electoral reform Snoopers charter Scrapping human rights Syria Iraq ISIS Deflation No - the media decides to give wall to wall coverage of what the SNP might or might not do on any future vote on foxhunting inciting a twitter storm in the process An no doubt even after pointing this out folk will still go on and on about it because they just cant see it It's the first of many Unionist traps to try and reflect negatively on the SNP and cause division Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 "Shake that up" by behaving like brownshirts and forcing 83 year old men from their seat? Even though I disagree with Dennis Skinner on whether socialism is a good idea or not, he's represented his constituency for over 45 years and always seemed like a very principled man. There was no reason to treat him like that and that wasn't even the only thuggish thing they did. The SNP are scum. Plain and simple. It's not his seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 It's not his seat. If there isnae enough seats for everybody I think it's only fair that the auld codgers get one first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euan2020 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Is skinner not full of shit ? Surely he was not on the opposition benches when labour were in power 97-2010. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Labour just want to have all of the front benches even though its custom that the third biggest party gets gets 2 rows The Lib dems used to have them but gave them up when they went into coalition Skinner will have to move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) This "issue" is why the media in this country is absolutely corrupt. The English media regurgitates the foxhunting story. ( i believe it was the Torygraph as long ago as the 8th February that first ran with it ) A story about a suggestion in the Tory manifesto that they might repeal the fox hunting ban at some undisclosed time in this parliament. Now just think about the things in the Tory manifesto that the media could be running wall to wall stories about - not to mention whats actually happening in the World right now. Proposed Welfare cap No housing benefit for those on jobseekers allowance Further attacks on trade unions Cutting disability benefits Boundary review No electoral reform Snoopers charter Scrapping human rights Syria Iraq ISIS Deflation No - the media decides to give wall to wall coverage of what the SNP might or might not do on any future vote on foxhunting inciting a twitter storm in the process An no doubt even after pointing this out folk will still go on and on about it because they just cant see it It's the first of many Unionist traps to try and reflect negatively on the SNP and cause division Spot on. Even the decent bloggers don't seem to be getting it and focussing on the pros and cons of the SNP voting Edited May 20, 2015 by Lamia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ANDYP Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 If there isnae enough seats for everybody I think it's only fair that the auld codgers get one first. he shouldn't be there at that age Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Is skinner not full of shit ? Surely he was not on the opposition benches when labour were in power 97-2010. ? He was, he sat with the Lib Dems in the seat he's always been in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishcumnock Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Why no coverage of the SNP taking the oath ? Is this a just in case! move? Or am I being conspiratorial ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Why no coverage of the SNP taking the oath ? Is this a just in case! move? Or am I being conspiratorial ? I imagine there was. Folk on my Twitter feed were watching it somewhere and getting all excited and giddy about it... Weirdos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/sitting-uncomfortably/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/sitting-uncomfortably/ The wee dug says exactly what I've been saying for years - auld Dennis is just a plaything for the Eton boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 The SNP MP's are behaving like children staking out benches, IF that is the height of their anti-establishment behavior, and sadly I believe it is, then we're in for a laughable 5 years. The Lib Dems occupied those benches before the SNP, and do you know what they done? They left space for Mr. Skinner and Katy Clark to take their seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishcumnock Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 She's got a fat arse though ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/sitting-uncomfortably/ That pretty much nails it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 "Shake that up" by behaving like brownshirts and forcing 83 year old men from their seat? Even though I disagree with Dennis Skinner on whether socialism is a good idea or not, he's represented his constituency for over 45 years and always seemed like a very principled man. There was no reason to treat him like that and that wasn't even the only thuggish thing they did. The SNP are scum. Plain and simple. Bit rich coming from a bigot like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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