Strength in depth

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, Texas Pete said:

Roxburgh was long gone by then. 

Goram spat the dummy and left the squad on the warm up trip to the USA when Craig Brown told him Leighton would be first choice keeper at the the World Cup. 

Genuinely didn't know Goram spat the dummy in 98. I thought he left due to his private life being spread across the tabloids?

[Texas Pete]

5 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Genuinely didn't know Goram spat the dummy in 98. I thought he left due to his private life being spread across the tabloids?

That may well have been part of it but he definitely left the squad after being told Leighton would start against Brazil. He claimed later it was because he didn’t have a club and wouldn’t be able to get one if he picked up an injury at the World Cup but there’s no way he’d have left the squad if Brown had picked him ahead of Leighton. 

[duncan II]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

 

I would trade roberston for a colin hendry these days

You jest.

[vanderark14]

11 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

That may well have been part of it but he definitely left the squad after being told Leighton would start against Brazil. He claimed later it was because he didn’t have a club and wouldn’t be able to get one if he picked up an injury at the World Cup but there’s no way he’d have left the squad if Brown had picked him ahead of Leighton. 

Fair point, nobody would jack it If starting a world cup. I wonder if brown went with Leighton because of the issues in gorams private life

Imagine having two keepers of that quality fighting for the Jersey nowadays 😳

[scotlad]

25 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Fair point, nobody would jack it If starting a world cup. I wonder if brown went with Leighton because of the issues in gorams private life

Imagine having two keepers of that quality fighting for the Jersey nowadays 😳

Plus Neil Sullivan, a solid EPL keeper, as third choice.

I think anyone suggesting our current team is better than the 97/98 side is getting a wee bit carried away by Tuesday's excellent result.  We've better options at full-back but other than that it's debatable.  However, the fact it's even debatable is a sign of progress, because it wasn't even close a few years ago.

[Whelky75]

28 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Fair point, nobody would jack it If starting a world cup. I wonder if brown went with Leighton because of the issues in gorams private life

Imagine having two keepers of that quality fighting for the Jersey nowadays 😳

We had three, for about 10-15 years, until a few months ago.

[vanderark14]

10 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Plus Neil Sullivan, a solid EPL keeper, as third choice.

I think anyone suggesting our current team is better than the 97/98 side is getting a wee bit carried away by Tuesday's excellent result.  We've better options at full-back but other than that it's debatable.  However, the fact it's even debatable is a sign of progress, because it wasn't even close a few years ago.

Completely agree. This team could eclipse the 98 team, it's too early to properly debate as this team isn't finished yet

10 minutes ago, Whelky75 said:

We had three, for about 10-15 years, until a few months ago.

Ok

[syecosse]

I think this team is a very solid squad and that there is a very strong possibility it is only going to get stronger and have players really challenge that will add strength and possibly push further, Doak, Dire Mebude, Hackney, Doig and Fiorini amongst others with the right moves or gametime next year will push on. 

[ceudmilefailte]

54 minutes ago, duncan II said:

You jest.

"I would trade roberston for a colin hendry these days"

We have plenty left backs and no centre backs so probably the sensible thing to do.

Think Brown would be even happier with his replacement for Tosh McKinlay.

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, vanderark14 said:

Genuinely didn't know Goram spat the dummy in 98. I thought he left due to his private life being spread across the tabloids?

 

1 hour ago, Texas Pete said:

That may well have been part of it but he definitely left the squad after being told Leighton would start against Brazil. He claimed later it was because he didn’t have a club and wouldn’t be able to get one if he picked up an injury at the World Cup but there’s no way he’d have left the squad if Brown had picked him ahead of Leighton. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/6501037.stm

"But I was told by two different coaches that I wasn't going be playing in France.

"There's no point in me sitting on the bench, nearly a 40-year-old. I would rather a young kid came in, like I did in Mexico as a young lad, and go and learn your trade that way.

"I took the decision and retired. I spoke to Craig, and to be fair he didn't put up too much of a fight.

"I thought I was good enough to play in France. I had never played in a World Cup, but I thought I was good enough.

"To get told you're not playing is fine, you've got to accept that, but I didn't want to risk getting injured just by training when I had no club, as that would have been my livelihood.

"Jim Leighton did the same thing ahead of a double-header, two days before a qualifying game. And, yet, he retired in the press's eyes.

"Even now, Andy Goram walked out on Scotland, but Jim Leighton retired.

[ceudmilefailte]

6 minutes ago, syecosse said:

I think this team is a very solid squad and that there is a very strong possibility it is only going to get stronger and have players really challenge that will add strength and possibly push further, Doak, Dire Mebude, Hackney, Doig and Fiorini amongst others with the right moves or gametime next year will push on. 

We really are getting carried away with the potential of some players.

Hopefully yes but probably no to nearly all, or indeed all of them.

[Texas Pete]

20 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/6501037.stm

"But I was told by two different coaches that I wasn't going be playing in France.

"There's no point in me sitting on the bench, nearly a 40-year-old. I would rather a young kid came in, like I did in Mexico as a young lad, and go and learn your trade that way.

"I took the decision and retired. I spoke to Craig, and to be fair he didn't put up too much of a fight.

"I thought I was good enough to play in France. I had never played in a World Cup, but I thought I was good enough.

"To get told you're not playing is fine, you've got to accept that, but I didn't want to risk getting injured just by training when I had no club, as that would have been my livelihood.

"Jim Leighton did the same thing ahead of a double-header, two days before a qualifying game. And, yet, he retired in the press's eyes.

"Even now, Andy Goram walked out on Scotland, but Jim Leighton retired.

Leaving the squad a couple of weeks before the World Cup because he didn’t want to sit on the bench is spitting the dummy for me. He was also very unlikely to pick up an injury sitting on the bench unless a numb arse counts. 

He’s still one of our best keepers ever though but I remember thinking at the time it would have put us in a horrible position if Leighton had picked up an injury just before the Brazil game or even later on in the tournament. 

[Ally Bongo]

4 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Leaving the squad a couple of weeks before the World Cup because he didn’t want to sit on the bench is spitting the dummy for me. He was also very unlikely to pick up an injury sitting on the bench unless a numb arse counts. 

 

He would have had to take part in goalkeeper training with the squad before matches

If he had spat the dummy other people would have been aware of it and i dont recall anyone contradicting what he says happened

 

[Texas Pete]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

He would have had to take part in goalkeeper training with the squad before matches

If he had spat the dummy other people would have been aware of it and i dont recall anyone contradicting what he says happened

 

It was all over the papers at the time. He was happy enough to join up with the squad when he thought he might start and only went home when he found out Leighton was starting. If that isn’t spitting the dummy I don’t know what is. 

There was the other stuff with his personal life though to be fair so he obviously had other issues to worry about. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Texas Pete

[Whelky75]

18 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

Leaving the squad a couple of weeks before the World Cup because he didn’t want to sit on the bench is spitting the dummy for me. He was also very unlikely to pick up an injury sitting on the bench unless a numb arse counts. 

He’s still one of our best keepers ever though but I remember thinking at the time it would have put us in a horrible position if Leighton had picked up an injury just before the Brazil game or even later on in the tournament. 

I agree. Really poor attitude.

Also, his story doesn’t add up, when he recounts it years later and describes himself as ‘nearly a 40 year old.’ Jim Leighton was about a month off being a 40-year-old at the World Cup in 1998. Andy Goram was 34. That’s not old for a goalkeeper at all, wasn’t he still turning out in squads for Scottish League teams over a decade later?!

Also, he tries to drag Jim Leighton into the argument, by comparing Leighton’s retirement to his own situation. Bizarre and unnecessary.

And, I say all of this as a massive Andy Goram fan! He was the first professional footballer I ever met. I remember queueing up to get his autograph at some kind of meet-and-greet, in around 1993 perhaps, and asking him how many Scotland caps he had and him saying ‘28’. Not sure why that sticks with me, probably because it was such a big moment as a youngster, meeting and chatting to a professional footballer for the first time!

[ghorne67]

3 hours ago, Whelky75 said:

I’m pretty sure Kevin Gallagher was injured that season, or surely he’d have played way more games than that? Kevin Gallagher reached a far higher level consistently over his career than Che Adams has so far reached. Adams could find himself as a Championship player again pretty soon and I don’t think he’d be guaranteed a move back to the top flight.

Not sure I buy that. Gallagher scored 55 goals in 10 season in the EPL and 9 in 53 for Scotland.

Che Adams has 25 in 4 seasons and 5 in 23 for Scotland 

[Whelky75]

8 minutes ago, ghorne67 said:

Not sure I buy that. Gallagher scored 55 goals in 10 season in the EPL and 9 in 53 for Scotland.

Che Adams has 25 in 4 seasons and 5 in 23 for Scotland 

Wow, I didn’t realise that Che Adams had been playing in the Premier League for that long, I thought he’d only just moved there! Time flies, I suppose. Or maybe I just didn’t pay much heed to him until he chose to represent Scotland.

Yeah, it looks like he’s a better player than I give him credit for. Although, it will be interesting to see if Southampton go down, whether he ends up as a Premier League player or a Championship player in the long term.

[Whelky75]

19 minutes ago, ghorne67 said:

Not sure I buy that. Gallagher scored 55 goals in 10 season in the EPL and 9 in 53 for Scotland.

Che Adams has 25 in 4 seasons and 5 in 23 for Scotland 

Not that it makes any significant difference to the discussion, but I make it that Gallagher played only nine seasons in the English Premier League. (Also three seasons in the top division when it was known as the First Division.)

His career was disrupted by several serious injuries in his prime too, which should be taken into account when making any assessments of what he achieved in the game.

[Shaundy]

We’ve the best squad and team with the best coach in my life . Conscious of supporting Scotland since early 70’s. 
I am loving the way the squad, team and manager are heading. The country that created. Remember ‘created’ , the passing football game. 

in the soon to be celebrated 150 years of international competition betwixt us and them , it took until 1983 for them to match us . 
At the time English teams were enjoying a six year winning streak as champions of Europe with teams starting with as few a one Englander and a few more Scots. 
 

[Whelky75]

17 minutes ago, Shaundy said:

We’ve the best squad and team with the best coach in my life . Conscious of supporting Scotland since early 70’s. 
I am loving the way the squad, team and manager are heading. The country that created. Remember ‘created’ , the passing football game. 

in the soon to be celebrated 150 years of international competition betwixt us and them , it took until 1983 for them to match us . 
At the time English teams were enjoying a six year winning streak as champions of Europe with teams starting with as few a one Englander and a few more Scots. 
 

What do you mean ‘it took until 1983 for them to match us’?

Also, you can’t be serious in saying this is the best squad and team with the best coach in your life? If you are, then that is recency bias at its finest. 

[Tartan blood]

10 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Completely agree. This team could eclipse the 98 team, it's too early to properly debate as this team isn't finished yet

 

This is exactly it. 1998 was the pinnacle of that squad and era. It was a very rapid fall off a cliff after that. Right now we are on an upward trajectory, and no where near this squad's peak (in my opinion). I personally believe this squad will eclipse the 98 one. But it is a bit premature to compare.

Since 1998, we have had a fair few strong teams. 2007 being the obvious example. However, at that point we really only had a core of about 13 or 14 players that were of a decent standard. Even just a couple of call offs weakened us significantly. Now, I feel like we could happily swap out about 8 starters from the Spain match and the quality wouldn't dip much at all. That's how much more depth we have at the minute.

[Whelky75]

1 hour ago, Tartan blood said:

This is exactly it. 1998 was the pinnacle of that squad and era. It was a very rapid fall off a cliff after that. Right now we are on an upward trajectory, and no where near this squad's peak (in my opinion). I personally believe this squad will eclipse the 98 one. But it is a bit premature to compare.

Since 1998, we have had a fair few strong teams. 2007 being the obvious example. However, at that point we really only had a core of about 13 or 14 players that were of a decent standard. Even just a couple of call offs weakened us significantly. Now, I feel like we could happily swap out about 8 starters from the Spain match and the quality wouldn't dip much at all. That's how much more depth we have at the minute.

1996 was far more the pinnacle, I would have said?

We performed really well at Euro ‘96, in a tougher group than we had at the World Cup in 1998.

[Caledonian Craig]

Also if you dig deeper into the Euro 96 squad do not be fooled by those amount playing in the EPL.

Colin Calderwood (Tottenham) was a first team regular.

Colin Hendry (Blackburn R) also a first team regular.

John Spencer (Chelsea) a first team regular.

Eoin Jess (Coventry City) bit of a flop and did not tie down a first team place.

Gary McAllister (Leeds United) first team regular

Craig Burley (Chelsea) by no means a first team regular 

Billy McKinlay (Blackburn R) another who was not getting regular football for his club.

Kevin Gallacher (Blackburn R) only a semi-regular in the first team.

Scott Gemmill (Notts Forest) a regular but did not rip up any trees in the EPL.

Compare that to our EPL players of today. Robertson widely regarded as one of the best left-backs in Europe and getting regular matches. Hickey will be a first team regular when fit. Tierney will be a first team regular if/when he moves. McTominay is similar - has had regularish football and can reclaim regular football away from United. McGinn has had regular football at Villa and is destined to be one of our all-time leading goalscorers. On the fringes of the first team have been Cooper, McKenna, Patterson and Christie. Semi-regulars have been Adams and Armstrong.

 

[ParisInAKilt]

I like that we can afford to swap out a few players in key positions and still perform to a high level. 

[Caledonian Craig]

6 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

I like that we can afford to swap out a few players in key positions and still perform to a high level. 

Certainly so defensively. I mean look at our options there now. We have Hanley, Hendry, Porteous, Tierney, Cooper, McKenna and Souttar all of whom have shown their capable at international level in a back three. I'd like to see what Hyam can do too. Plenty of options. And out wide we have options in Robertson, Hickey, Tierney (can slot in there), Patterson, Ralston, Taylor and hopefully soon the likes of Ramsay and Doig.

Midfield has options too in the form of McGinn, McGregor, McTominay, Gilmour, Armstrong, Ferguson and Jack.

In goal we are thin on the ground and just a bit better off up front.