Strength in depth

[Whelky75]

7 minutes ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

Talking of strength, remember when we used to play the ball into the corner, in the last minute, if we were getting a result against good opposition....

 

 

In fairness, the four other times I have seen us beat ‘big’ teams, have all been 1-0.

I think this video is more down to the difference between a one-goal lead and a two-goal lead, rather than any new approach!

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, Whelky75 said:

I don’t agree about Tom Boyd. Obviously, we now happen to have two outstanding players at left back, but I believe that Tom Boyd often played at right back as well and even if not, to suggest he wouldn’t be the next pick behind Robertson and Tierney and a guaranteed pick in the squad is ludicrous.

I seem to remember him as part of a back three with Hendry and Calderwood. Pretty solid iirc. Having Leighton or Goram behind them helped.

[mccaughey85]

3 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

The squad for Italia 90 was a hundred times more gifted than the France 98 squad

Yeh i would agree with that. 

I just think ppl are deluding themselves a bit if they think this squad was better than the 98 squad. We had 4 second tier players starting against spain. Does that not suggest that we lack depth in certain areas?

[Whelky75]

14 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I seem to remember him as part of a back three with Hendry and Calderwood. Pretty solid iirc. Having Leighton or Goram behind them helped.

I don’t remember us playing a back three, but I suppose everyone was using that formation at that point.

I think ‘pretty solid’ is an understatement. As I mentioned earlier, Scotland had the least goals conceded out of any team in Europe, who competed in the qualifying campaigns for both Euro ‘96 and World Cup ‘98. 15 clean sheets in 20 matches, with only six goals conceded.

Can someone tell me why Andy Goram didn’t go to the World Cup in 1998? Injury? Retirement? Falling out with the coach? I should know but I was quite young at the time and have forgotten. It seems strange if he’d retired as I assume Jim Leighton is much older than he is.

[ghorne67]

14 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh i would agree with that. 

I just think ppl are deluding themselves a bit if they think this squad was better than the 98 squad. We had 4 second tier players starting against spain. Does that not suggest that we lack depth in certain areas?

Darren Jackson started multiple games in 98. Would be the equivalent of Scott Wright being a mainstay just now.

[Texas Pete]

54 minutes ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

Talking of strength, remember when we used to play the ball into the corner, in the last minute, if we were getting a result against good opposition....

 

 

We still would if we were 1-0 up and rightly so. 

[mccaughey85]

34 minutes ago, ghorne67 said:

Darren Jackson started multiple games in 98. Would be the equivalent of Scott Wright being a mainstay just now.

Thats an unfair comparison. Jackson was probably more akin to dykes. Ok dykes has probably done alot better so far for scotland but club wise both players probably had similar level of careers. 

Jackson was very good at hibs and had a decent career. Its important to remember he never got a game in the early to mid 90s because we had much better strikers during those periods. Guys like spencer, mccoist, Ferguson, gallacher, durie were all ahead of him. If dykes was up against that lot he might not get a game either.

I think you are forgetting that dykes plays for qpr in the second tier and hes not even very prolific in that league.

Hes done great for scotland but jackson had some decent games as well.

Also you are just picking out individual players that suit your argument. Are you forgetting the fact that we had two epl centre backs, one of which won the epl and was an integral part of that win. We had a european cup winning midfielder in lambert and monacos(a top european team at that time) captain in collins. We also had an epl striker who had spent a large part of his career in the english top flight.

Even a guy like burley was an epl regular for years before playing for a good celtic team that stopped the 10. 

Our keeper was ex man utd who had won european trophies with aberdeen. 

Now our keeper plays in the second tier of the english league for norwich. 

Its nice that we are improving and we got a good win v a poor spain team but lets not get carried away. This squad has big weaknesses in certain areas like centre back and striker and the idea that its better than 98s is strange if you consider that we played 4 guys in the english championship. In 98 the thought of playing four guys from the english second tier would be completely unacceptable. Our 96 and 98 teams were made up od accomplished epl regulars and very good old firm players at a time when the old firm were stronger than most epl teams.

Out of interest would you say this squad is stronger than the 96 squad?

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by mccaughey85

[Whelky75]

42 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Thats an unfair comparison. Jackson was probably more akin to dykes. Ok dykes has probably done alot better so far for scotland but club wise both players probably had similar level of careers. 

Jackson was very good at hibs and had a decent career. Its important to remember he never got a game in the early to mid 90s because we had much better strikers during those periods. Guys like spencer, mccoist, Ferguson, gallacher, durie were all ahead of him. If dykes was up against that lot he might not get a game either.

I think you are forgetting that dykes plays for qpr in the second tier and hes not even very prolific in that league.

Hes done great for scotland but jackson had some decent games as well.

Also you are just picking out individual players that suit your argument. Are you forgetting the fact that we had two epl centre backs, one of which won the epl and was an integral part of that win. We had a european cup winning midfielder in lambert and monacos(a top european team at that time) captain in collins. We also had an epl striker who had spent a large part of his career in the english top flight.

Even a guy like burley was an epl regular for years before playing for a good celtic team that stopped the 10. 

Our keeper was ex man utd who had won european trophies with aberdeen. 

Now our keeper plays in the second tier of the english league for norwich. 

Its nice that we are improving and we got a good win v a poor spain team but lets not get carried away. This squad has big weaknesses in certain areas like centre back and striker and the idea that its better than 98s is strange if you consider that we played 4 guys in the english championship. In 98 the thought of playing four guys from the english second tier would be completely unacceptable. Our 96 and 98 teams were made up od accomplished epl regulars and very good old firm players at a time when the old firm were stronger than most epl teams.

Out of interest would you say this squad is stronger than the 96 squad?

 

I am still astonished at how well Lyndon Dykes has done for us and I assume it will all come crashing down for him at some point, given how much of a lower level he performs at for his club. I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but at some point, the discrepancy between his club performances and his international performances has to flatten out a bit, surely.

When push comes to shove, in big games, I still think our lack of quality options in the key areas of central defence and central attack will leave us to be found wanting.

[ghorne67]

45 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

 

Also you are just picking out individual players that suit your argument. Are you forgetting the fact that we had two epl centre backs, one of which won the epl and was an integral part of that win. We had a european cup winning midfielder in lambert and monacos(a top european team at that time) captain in collins. We also had an epl striker who had spent a large part of his career in the english top flight.

 

 

This squad has all that without even getting onto the likes of McTominay, McGinn, Hendry, Ferguson, Hickey, Paterson

 

EPL centre backs - McKenna, Cooper, Tierney

EPL winners - Robertson, Tierney in a months time

Champions League Winners - Robertson, Gilmour

EPL Striker - Che Adams

[mccaughey85]

3 minutes ago, Whelky75 said:

I am still astonished at how well Lyndon Dykes has done for us and I assume it will all come crashing down for him at some point, given how much of a lower level he performs at for his club. I hope he continues to prove me wrong, but at some point, the discrepancy between his club performances and his international performances has to flatten out a bit, surely.

When push comes to shove, in big games, I still think our lack of quality options in the key areas of central defence and central attack will leave us to be found wanting.

Personally i think hes a good player and if he was to add a few more goals to his game then he would be playing epl. Problem is he just doesnt score enough goals at championship level to warrant an epl team taking a chance on him.

Ppl have short memories, i remember him taking alot of flak on here after the euros and at the start of our world cup campaign but the last 5 or 6 games hes been excellent. I would hope that maybe in the future a proper goalscoring talent comes along who is able to cut it in the epl but dykes will always warrant his place in the squad due to his performances for scotland. 

[Whelky75]

1 minute ago, ghorne67 said:

This squad has all that without even getting onto the likes of McTominay, McGinn, Hendry, Ferguson, Hickey, Paterson

 

EPL centre backs - McKenna, Cooper, Tierney

EPL winners - Robertson, Tierney in a months time

Champions League Winners - Robertson, Gilmour

EPL Striker - Che Adams

You’re fooling no one with this. If you’re going to debate this, at least be honest and fair about it.

Firstly the ‘Tierney in a months (sic) time’ comment is an absolute liberty and you know it.

There is also obviously a significant difference between playing a season or two for a team at the bottom of the English Premier League, than there is in playing there consistently for years and years.

The World Cup 1998 squad had a lot more players who played in the English Premier League consistently for years and years. This squad, as mccaughey85 rightly says, is below that level, in general.

Andy Robertson and Kieran Tierney are obviously very good players, playing at a high level and Scott McTominay’s level is up for debate, given how relatively bad Manchester United have been in recent years. Those three drag the average level of our squad up significantly, but unfortunately the two outstanding players are both left backs, which is about as far from ideal as you could dream up. Our squad on the whole, is picked from a far lower level of player than it was in 1998.

[ceudmilefailte]

The English Premier league wasn't as good a league in 1998, get over it.

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

The English Premier league wasn't as good a league in 1998, get over it.

Agreed.

I have already pointed out has it has improved so much since then. EPL clubs deal almost exclusively in foreign imports today unline the late 1990s allowing Scots to still find spots in EPL sides that they would not get today.

[mccaughey85]

9 minutes ago, ghorne67 said:

This squad has all that without even getting onto the likes of McTominay, McGinn, Hendry, Ferguson, Hickey, Paterson

 

EPL centre backs - McKenna, Cooper, Tierney

EPL winners - Robertson, Tierney in a months time

Champions League Winners - Robertson, Gilmour

EPL Striker - Che Adams

Lol you are stretching it with some of those. 

Cooper spent most of his career at championship and league 1 up until recently. Mckenna is in his first season in the epl and Tierney isnt really an epl centre back. Both calderwood and hendry spent about 8 or 9 consecutive seasons playing epl. Hendry was probably one of the best centrebacks in the epl for a few seasons. I doubt you will ever be able to say that about cooper or mckenna.

Also tierney doesnt start games for arsenal. He might get a medal but hendry was basically the most important player for blackburn if you exclude shearer. He was a rock and one of the main reason an unfashionable team like blackburn were able to win the epl.

Gilmour is not a champions league winner in the same way lambert was. Claiming hes a champions league winner is embarrassing.

Yeh fair enough che adams is an epl striker but both todays squad and 98s squad were pretty weak in the striker department. Both squads had one epl striker of similar quality. You take adams or gallacher out of each squad and its pretty dire choices. You had guys like donnelly and dykes as back up. Not exactly stellar choices tbf. 

 

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Agreed.

I have already pointed out has it has improved so much since then. EPL clubs deal almost exclusively in foreign imports today unline the late 1990s allowing Scots to still find spots in EPL sides that they would not get today.

So how does our 86 or 90 squads fair with today if the standard of football was soo low in the english/scottish top flight. Is someone like mccalister or macleod less of a player than mcginn or mcgregor because their was less foreign players in the english and scottish top flights?

Our 96 squad qualified for a 16 team euros. Our 98 squad qualified as the best runner up in europe. We were the joint strongest team defensively in europe during both those campaigns. So far this squad has only qualified for a 24 team euros through a lucky back door entrance. The 96 and 98 squads got results which shows they were made up of good players. 

Dont get me wrong this group has potential to surpass the 98 squad but until it happens i wont be claiming they are neccessarily better.

[ghorne67]

52 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Agreed.

I have already pointed out has it has improved so much since then. EPL clubs deal almost exclusively in foreign imports today unline the late 1990s allowing Scots to still find spots in EPL sides that they would not get today.

Exactly. Colin Hendry and Kevin Gallacher might have won the EPL but they were hardly world beaters. You pretty much have to be one of the best in the world to be starting for Man City/Liverpool/Chelsea in their recent title winning seasons. Blackburn had boys like Mike Newell, Jeff Kenna, Ian Pearce taking a strip that season. Pretty sure Lee Makel even got a few games!  

[Caledonian Craig]

There is so much you are not taking into account and ignoring.

You cannot judge squads on talent 30 years apart for so many reasons such as:-

1. The EPL is far stronger today attracting more global stars and shrinking places available for Scots hence they end up where they do.

2. The SPL too is far different as there is a far greater foreign influence across the league which is not for the better in my opinion. It throttles the opportunities for young Scots talent.

3. The international landscape is far tougher now. We have seen the emergence of new sides such as Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and other counties part of the former Soviet Union who have grown in strength. Countries once there for a thrashing are much tougher prospects too. Teams like Iceland, Turkey, Finland and more now regularly qualify whilst powerhouses like Italy and Netherlands have missed out on qualification in recent times that is how tough it is now.

4. Technically, players have to be better to cut the mustard and defenders now have to be a different breed as tacking from behind and going right through a player is now a red card offence so greater discipline is needed.

You simply cannot compare squads. You can argue on one hand our squad back then were winning honours with big clubs but then again you could argue that today our squad would fetch more on the transfer market.

[ghorne67]

52 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

So how does our 86 or 90 squads fair with today if the standard of football was soo low in the english/scottish top flight. Is someone like mccalister or macleod less of a player than mcginn or mcgregor because their was less foreign players in the english and scottish top flights?

Our 96 squad qualified for a 16 team euros. Our 98 squad qualified as the best runner up in europe. We were the joint strongest team defensively in europe during both those campaigns. So far this squad has only qualified for a 24 team euros through a lucky back door entrance. The 96 and 98 squads got results which shows they were made up of good players. 

Dont get me wrong this group has potential to surpass the 98 squad but until it happens i wont be claiming they are neccessarily better.

We got pretty lucky with the groups in 96 and 98 to be fair. Russia out Pot 1 and Greece out of Pot 2 in 96 and then Sweded out of Pot 1 in 98. 

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, ghorne67 said:

Exactly. Colin Hendry and Kevin Gallacher might have won the EPL but they were hardly world beaters. You pretty much have to be one of the best in the world to be starting for Man City/Liverpool/Chelsea in their recent title winning seasons. Blackburn had boys like Mike Newell, Jeff Kenna, Ian Pearce taking a strip that season. Pretty sure Lee Makel even got a few games!  

No ones ever said that hendry was a world beater. He was a solid epl centre back who was probably one of the top 5/6 in the epl for a few seasons. Kevin gallacher played 1 game in blackburns title winning season. Not sure why hes being brought up as world beater either.

Blackburn winning the title was quite a shock at the time even though they had massive investment it was expected that man utd would run away with the title that year. Guys like shearer, sutton and hendry basically had the seasons of their life and helped an unfancied team win the title. It maybe wasnt quite a leicester upset but it was still quite a surprise.

I would trade roberston for a colin hendry these days even if liverpool are far better overall than the blackburn team who won the league. Having a top epl centre back and even a guy like calderwood made a massive difference to being able to compete consistently at international level.

[0Neils40yarder]

17 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Bpyd would get nowhere nest the team now. Same way he'd get nowhere near the Celtic team. 

There's no reason why Jackson wouldn't be in the squad? Main reason I'd give was the fact he was shite.

Jackson was a better player than Shankland or Brown...Boyd was a far better player than ever given credit for

[Third Lanark]

3 hours ago, Whelky75 said:

I don’t remember us playing a back three, but I suppose everyone was using that formation at that point.

I think ‘pretty solid’ is an understatement. As I mentioned earlier, Scotland had the least goals conceded out of any team in Europe, who competed in the qualifying campaigns for both Euro ‘96 and World Cup ‘98. 15 clean sheets in 20 matches, with only six goals conceded.

Can someone tell me why Andy Goram didn’t go to the World Cup in 1998? Injury? Retirement? Falling out with the coach? I should know but I was quite young at the time and have forgotten. It seems strange if he’d retired as I assume Jim Leighton is much older than he is.

Think he had a big falling out with Roxburgh; cannot recollect why.

[Texas Pete]

5 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

Think he had a big falling out with Roxburgh; cannot recollect why.

Roxburgh was long gone by then. 

Goram spat the dummy and left the squad on the warm up trip to the USA when Craig Brown told him Leighton would be first choice keeper at the the World Cup. 

[Third Lanark]

1 hour ago, Texas Pete said:

Roxburgh was long gone by then. 

Goram spat the dummy and left the squad on the warm up trip to the USA when Craig Brown told him Leighton would be first choice keeper at the the World Cup. 

Ah thanks for that mate. Goram was better but his lack of height always concerned me.

[Whelky75]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

No ones ever said that hendry was a world beater. He was a solid epl centre back who was probably one of the top 5/6 in the epl for a few seasons. Kevin gallacher played 1 game in blackburns title winning season. Not sure why hes being brought up as world beater either.

Blackburn winning the title was quite a shock at the time even though they had massive investment it was expected that man utd would run away with the title that year. Guys like shearer, sutton and hendry basically had the seasons of their life and helped an unfancied team win the title. It maybe wasnt quite a leicester upset but it was still quite a surprise.

I would trade roberston for a colin hendry these days even if liverpool are far better overall than the blackburn team who won the league. Having a top epl centre back and even a guy like calderwood made a massive difference to being able to compete consistently at international level.

I’m pretty sure Kevin Gallagher was injured that season, or surely he’d have played way more games than that? Kevin Gallagher reached a far higher level consistently over his career than Che Adams has so far reached. Adams could find himself as a Championship player again pretty soon and I don’t think he’d be guaranteed a move back to the top flight.

[Whelky75]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

There is so much you are not taking into account and ignoring.

You cannot judge squads on talent 30 years apart for so many reasons such as:-

1. The EPL is far stronger today attracting more global stars and shrinking places available for Scots hence they end up where they do.

2. The SPL too is far different as there is a far greater foreign influence across the league which is not for the better in my opinion. It throttles the opportunities for young Scots talent.

3. The international landscape is far tougher now. We have seen the emergence of new sides such as Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and other counties part of the former Soviet Union who have grown in strength. Countries once there for a thrashing are much tougher prospects too. Teams like Iceland, Turkey, Finland and more now regularly qualify whilst powerhouses like Italy and Netherlands have missed out on qualification in recent times that is how tough it is now.

4. Technically, players have to be better to cut the mustard and defenders now have to be a different breed as tacking from behind and going right through a player is now a red card offence so greater discipline is needed.

You simply cannot compare squads. You can argue on one hand our squad back then were winning honours with big clubs but then again you could argue that today our squad would fetch more on the transfer market.

I agree the English Premier League (Premiership) was weaker back then, but I think not to the extent that closes the gap in quality between our squad then and now. The results of our Scotland squads in the mid to late 1990s speak for themselves.

Our current squad may go on to match those achievements but at the moment, notwithstanding a great result the other night, they have achieved nothing close to the 1990s squads as of yet.