Strength in depth

[mccaughey85]

1 minute ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Made a post it of who would disagree with the Scotland Captain and you were top of it.

 

Lol well he is talking shit tbf. Cooper and mclean are hardly examples of squad strength.

[ceudmilefailte]

27 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Lol well he is talking shit tbf. Cooper and mclean are hardly examples of squad strength.

That's the way way players see it though.

Fans regard potential as depth.

I was delighted when Ferguson and Patterson (I said it in the match thread) came on as that to me is depth in a squad but between them they have played less than 40 games outside of the SPL.

2-0 up against a top team and you want the some of the depth in your squad to be vastly experienced.

I didn't want Armstrong near the squad based on his club form but he is another very experienced player who did very well on Saturday.

Apart from the anomoly that is Jacob Brown Clarke knows exactly what he is doing with this set of players.

[ceudmilefailte]

49 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Really?

You do realise we started four english championship players against spain?

Our main striker plays for qpr in the second tier.

We tended to not have to resort to second tier players in the late 90s. I remember the outrage at having john mcginlay starting games. 

This squads pretty decent but its not better than 98s. Its probably similar in standard overall.

 

 

Of the 4 championship players Hanley and McLean have plenty of EPL experience, Porteous will eventually play in the EPL and Dykes is second choice striker behind Adam.

Apologies for being so disagreable but I cant mention McBurnie now until late May early June so I have to do something.😉

[mccaughey85]

23 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Of the 4 championship players Hanley and McLean have plenty of EPL experience, Porteous will eventually play in the EPL and Dykes is second choice striker behind Adam.

Apologies for being so disagreable but I cant mention McBurnie now until late May early June so I have to do something.😉

Yes and our 98 squad had centre backs who spent years on end in the epl. One of them even won the epl. 

Our central midfield in 98 was european cup winner(lambert), the monaco captain(collins), and a player who had been a chelsea first team player. Albeit a pre abramovich chelsea but still a decent epl team. 

Gallacher scored 16 epl goals in the season leading up to the world cup. Adams has never gotten near that tally. 

Our overall quality of squad isnt alot better than 98 and its very debatable if our first 11 is better than then either. 

Would you have gunn over leighton for example?

 

 

 

[Whelky75]

4 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Yes and our 98 squad had centre backs who spent years on end in the epl. One of them even won the epl. 

Our central midfield in 98 was european cup winner(lambert), the monaco captain(collins), and a player who had been a chelsea first team player. Albeit a pre abramovich chelsea but still a decent epl team. 

Gallacher scored 16 epl goals in the season leading up to the world cup. Adams has never gotten near that tally. 

Our overall quality of squad isnt alot better than 98 and its very debatable if our first 11 is better than then either. 

Would you have gunn over leighton for example?

 

 

 

Yeah, some people need to calm down a bit.

We are still miles behind where we were in the 1990s - one of the major reasons as to why we were qualifying for major tournaments then, when 8 to 16 European teams qualified and struggling to qualify now, when 13 to 24 teams qualify.

I can’t see how anyone could compare our current squad to then and keep a straight face. We went from a squad made up of loads of top division players in England, to a squad made up of lots of second-tier players in England. We have started to claw that back in recent years, but we still have far too many lower level players now, to come anywhere close to the standard of the 1990s Scotland teams. To suggest otherwise is simply disrespectful to what those players achieved, both for Scotland and in the game of football as a whole.

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Really?

You do realise we started four english championship players against spain?

Our main striker plays for qpr in the second tier.

We tended to not have to resort to second tier players in the late 90s. I remember the outrage at having john mcginlay starting games. 

This squads pretty decent but its not better than 98s. Its probably similar in standard overall.

 

 

You did look at the link given showing the 98 squads ???

Scott Booth

Derek White

Scot Gemmill

Simon Donnelly

Matt Elliott

Darren Jackson

Tosh McKinlay

Billy McKinlay

Craig Burley

Cackola

 

[Whelky75]

44 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Of the 4 championship players Hanley and McLean have plenty of EPL experience, Porteous will eventually play in the EPL and Dykes is second choice striker behind Adam.

Apologies for being so disagreable but I cant mention McBurnie now until late May early June so I have to do something.😉

That’s a bold statement to say that Ryan Porteous will eventually play in the EPL.

You state that as fact, when it’s clearly far from it. He’s only recently moved to English Championship level.

[Whelky75]

1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said:

You did look at the link given showing the 98 squads ???

Scott Booth

Derek White

Scot Gemmill

Simon Donnelly

Matt Elliott

Darren Jackson

Tosh McKinlay

Billy McKinlay

Craig Burley

Cackola

 

Right. You’re deliberately selecting our lowest-level players there and they would still be comparable standard or perhaps higher standard than the lowest-level players in the current squad.

[mccaughey85]

2 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

You did look at the link given showing the 98 squads ???

Scott Booth

Derek White

Scot Gemmill

Simon Donnelly

Matt Elliott

Darren Jackson

Tosh McKinlay

Billy McKinlay

Craig Burley

Cackola

 

We have guys in the current squad who are similar in standard to those guys. 

Ppl like hanley, porteous, brown, dykes, gunn, mclean, cooper. These guys are championship players. At least scot gemmell and burley spent their careers in the epl. 

This place gets a bit delusional after a good win but a bit of realism regarding the fact that alot of our players are average journeymen is needed. 

If ppl can honestly sit and say our squad is alot stronger than 98s while we field four english second tier players is clearly talking shite.

[Ally Bongo]

3 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

We have guys in the current squad who are similar in standard to those guys. 

Ppl like hanley, porteous, brown, dykes, gunn, mclean, cooper. These guys are championship players. At least scot gemmell and burley spent their careers in the epl. 

This place gets a bit delusional after a good win but a bit of realism regarding the fact that alot of our players are average journeymen is needed. 

If ppl can honestly sit and say our squad is alot stronger than 98s while we field four english second tier players is clearly talking shite.

General footballing ability has changed a lot in 24 years

We had arguably only one genuine skillful player in that squad that could make things happen outwith a humph up the park for the strikers to run at - and that was Collins

[Diamond Scot]

When comparing 98 squad to now id say that in terms of level of where the players played, the 98 squad was much better.

However what I would say is that the type of player we have now is better in terms of technical ability.

Ie, guys like Tom Boyd played at a decent level but wasnt especially blessed technically. Collins is the only player I can think of whose game was based around technical ability. Lambart was a Motherwell player who Dortmund drilled into being a really good holding mid. Burley was decent but more or a hustle and bussle kind of player. We had lots of players who would compliment other "better" players in a team however I feel like we are starting to get more of the "better" players nowadays. Hickey for example can be anything he wants to be. McTominay is similar, Tierney and Robertson are up there with Europes beat left backs.

We played out of trouble against Spain. That meant we were never really backs against the wall. That ability allows teams to get good results more consistently than in the past.

[Whelky75]

2 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

When comparing 98 squad to now id say that in terms of level of where the players played, the 98 squad was much better.

However what I would say is that the type of player we have now is better in terms of technical ability.

Ie, guys like Tom Boyd played at a decent level but wasnt especially blessed technically. Collins is the only player I can think of whose game was based around technical ability. Lambart was a Motherwell player who Dortmund drilled into being a really good holding mid. Burley was decent but more or a hustle and bussle kind of player. We had lots of players who would compliment other "better" players in a team however I feel like we are starting to get more of the "better" players nowadays. Hickey for example can be anything he wants to be. McTominay is similar, Tierney and Robertson are up there with Europes beat left backs.

We played out of trouble against Spain. That meant we were never really backs against the wall. That ability allows teams to get good results more consistently than in the past.

But then surely the whole of football has changed, and every other team has made similar strides, so that’s irrelevant?

In the 1990s, we qualified for four major tournaments out of five, when there were between 8 and 16 European places available.

Since then, we haven’t qualified on sporting merit for a single tournament, despite there now being between 13 and 24 places up for grabs. We are way further down the European pecking order than we were back then. Part of that is due to the increase in teams and increase in quality teams, due to the break up of Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, but it’s mainly down to a decline in the level that we play at.

Andy Robertson and Kieran Tierney are outliers in our squad, in terms of dragging up the average level of our players, but in actual games, the fact that they are both left backs, negates the high level they both play at quite a bit, as it’s A. Difficult to fit them both in the same team and B. Not a position that has a great deal of influence over match results, as a whole, compared to nearly every other position on the pitch. If we had Arsenal and Liverpool players who were strikers, or creative midfielders, for example, that would be of far more advantage to us than having two left backs. That’s not to put down Robertson or Tierney, or what they do for our team, it’s just a simple truth about football and tactics.

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

General footballing ability has changed a lot in 24 years

We had arguably only one genuine skillful player in that squad that could make things happen outwith a humph up the park for the strikers to run at - and that was Collins

Yeh thats a different argument. Sport evolves and standards increase. You can only assess the players on the time period.

The 98(and 96) team/squad were very dull and workmanlike but they got results. They were a defensive team who were set up to not get beat rather than try and win games but that was the only way that team was going to get results. We had strong defenders and defensive midfielders. 

I would agree that theres a slightly more gifted player in our squad these days in regards to technical ability but as i said sports evolve and footballers these days are incredibly gifted in terms of ability compared with the 80s and 90s. 

 

[Whelky75]

Just now, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh thats a different argument. Sport evolves and standards increase. You can only assess the players on the time period.

The 98(and 96) team/squad were very dull and workmanlike but they got results. They were a defensive team who were set up to not get beat rather than try and win games but that was the only way that team was going to get results. We had strong defenders and defensive midfielders. 

I would agree that theres a slightly more gifted player in our squad these days in regards to technical ability but as i said sports evolve and footballers these days are incredibly gifted in terms of ability compared with the 80s and 90s. 

 

Is the ‘85’ in your name the year you were born? If so, I think we might be twins. Everything you say is like what I’m trying to say, but put better and more succinctly than I can!

[Squirrelhumper]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Really?

You do realise we started four english championship players against spain?

Our main striker plays for qpr in the second tier.

We tended to not have to resort to second tier players in the late 90s. I remember the outrage at having john mcginlay starting games. 

This squads pretty decent but its not better than 98s. Its probably similar in standard overall.

 

 

We also had guys like Simon Donnolly, Darren Jackson, Tom Boyd stc at a WC and none would get near the present squad. 

[Whelky75]

1 minute ago, Squirrelhumper said:

We also had guys like Simon Donnolly, Darren Jackson, Tom Boyd stc at a WC and none would get near the present squad. 

Em….. I don’t see why they wouldn’t?

Given how bad we have been up front for years/decades, there’s no reason why Darren Jackson and Simon DONNELLY wouldn’t be in the squad.

Tom Boyd won 72 caps, and is our seventh most-capped player and second most-capped defender of all time, so you’ve picked on the wrong player there. This was during a time when our defence was fairly formidable as well.

[Dave78]

10 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh thats a different argument. Sport evolves and standards increase. You can only assess the players on the time period.

 

 

You're right, but don't forget the relative strengths of the leagues back then.

Having Gallacher, a 16 goal a season striker in 90s England is much less impressive than it would be now, as the EPL was a much inferior league to Serie A or La Liga.

Same applies to Hendry, Calderwood etc.

 

 

[mccaughey85]

3 minutes ago, Whelky75 said:

Is the ‘85’ in your name the year you were born? If so, I think we might be twins. Everything you say is like what I’m trying to say, but put better and more succinctly than I can!

Yeh i was born in december 85. Got into football about 94 so i have fond memories of our qualifying campaigns for 96 and 98. Our team wasnt star studded back then but it did have a solid group who played in the english top tier and for the old firm who were decent sides back then. Defensively we were excellent around this period. Guys like gough, hendry and calderwood were rock solid and mccall, lambert, burley were defensively great at protecting our back four. Then you had players like collins and mccalister who kept possession brilliantly. Throw in a couple of great keepers in leighton and goram and you have a team that doesnt concede many goals if managed right which it was under craig brown.

[mccaughey85]

13 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

We also had guys like Simon Donnolly, Darren Jackson, Tom Boyd stc at a WC and none would get near the present squad. 

You do realise we have a qpr(second tier) as one of our main strikers. We also rely on hibs and hearts strikers. We have jacob brown in our squad lol. 

Jackson, donnelly and boyd would probably all make squads these days. 

[Diamond Scot]

16 minutes ago, Whelky75 said:

But then surely the whole of football has changed, and every other team has made similar strides, so that’s irrelevant?

In the 1990s, we qualified for four major tournaments out of five, when there were between 8 and 16 European places available.

Since then, we haven’t qualified on sporting merit for a single tournament, despite there now being between 13 and 24 places up for grabs. We are way further down the European pecking order than we were back then. Part of that is due to the increase in teams and increase in quality teams, due to the break up of Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, but it’s mainly down to a decline in the level that we play at.

Andy Robertson and Kieran Tierney are outliers in our squad, in terms of dragging up the average level of our players, but in actual games, the fact that they are both left backs, negates the high level they both play at quite a bit, as it’s A. Difficult to fit them both in the same team and B. Not a position that has a great deal of influence over match results, as a whole, compared to nearly every other position on the pitch. If we had Arsenal and Liverpool players who were strikers, or creative midfielders, for example, that would be of far more advantage to us than having two left backs. That’s not to put down Robertson or Tierney, or what they do for our team, it’s just a simple truth about football and tactics.

Theres alot of truth in what you say but even though football has moved on in a technical sense there has always been technical / creative players and then solid dependable players. In 98 we had alot of dependable players whereas now we have alot more technical / creative players.

We have found a way to get the best out of Robertson / Tierney. Our 2nd goal last night being a prime example. That was one of our CBs travelling down the wing and putting in the cross.

In terms of numbers of nations who qualified there are so many factors that have changed. Only 16 spots available but significantly less countrys to start with, then alot of countries who werent as developed in terms of football (remember that we pretty much got a head start on everybody). 

My point basically is that whilst we were always capable of a fighting backs to the wall result like France x2 in 07 we didnt have the quality throughout the team to consistently break down lesser teams, ie Georgia 07.

This team as a result of having players who are comfortable on the ball, players who can create etc means that we are much better against the lesser seeds. Thats not to say we dont have a bad performance in us but im so much more comfortable watching this team on the ball than ever before.

[mccaughey85]

7 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

You're right, but don't forget the relative strengths of the leagues back then.

Having Gallacher, a 16 goal a season striker in 90s England is much less impressive than it would be now, as the EPL was a much inferior league to Serie A or La Liga.

Same applies to Hendry, Calderwood etc.

 

 

The epl wasnt massively inferior to  serie a or la liga in the late 90s. Fair enough it was probably third but it was still very much a top league where the best of europe played. The idea that it was massively inferior to la liga and serie a is not true imo.

[Dave78]

1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said:

The epl wasnt massively inferior to  serie a or la liga in the late 90s. Fair enough it was probably third but it was still very much a top league where the best of europe played. The idea that it was massively inferior to la liga and serie a is not true imo.

I take your point. Though i will say i used the word "much" (which we may well agree it was?), not "massively".

[Caledonian Craig]

It is a bit daft though trying to compare like-for-like of squads based onbwhere players play today and  played in the 90s in our squads and try to use it as evidence. Back in the 90s the EPL was nowhere as awash with top foreign players as it is today. Shopping habits of EPL clubs saw them still recruiting much more from Scotland as course of habit plus the EPL was still yet to be the magnet for players from across Europe and further afield from South America and Africa. This meant far more slots available to Scots and as such a lower EPL standard than today. Players in our squad then awash with EPL experience in today's EPL would be Championship players in my honest opinion.

Also back then the international landscape was far different for us. We were still feasting on higher seeding and easier draws making qualifying more straight forward whereas today we have minefield draws. And I do not care what anyone says international football today is has higher levels of quality in greater quantity. Just look in recent times how former giants such as Italy and the Netherlands have failed to qualify for major tournaments is evidence of that.

It is just too difficult to judge squads strengths today with squads from 20 to 30 years ago. Technically, today our players are more gifted and physically better prepared.  In the 90s players had better experience playing at the highest levels.

[mccaughey85]

20 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Theres alot of truth in what you say but even though football has moved on in a technical sense there has always been technical / creative players and then solid dependable players. In 98 we had alot of dependable players whereas now we have alot more technical / creative players.

We have found a way to get the best out of Robertson / Tierney. Our 2nd goal last night being a prime example. That was one of our CBs travelling down the wing and putting in the cross.

In terms of numbers of nations who qualified there are so many factors that have changed. Only 16 spots available but significantly less countrys to start with, then alot of countries who werent as developed in terms of football (remember that we pretty much got a head start on everybody). 

My point basically is that whilst we were always capable of a fighting backs to the wall result like France x2 in 07 we didnt have the quality throughout the team to consistently break down lesser teams, ie Georgia 07.

This team as a result of having players who are comfortable on the ball, players who can create etc means that we are much better against the lesser seeds. Thats not to say we dont have a bad performance in us but im so much more comfortable watching this team on the ball than ever before.

I would definitely say theres more excitement with this squad compared with 96 and 98. We look more positive with guys like tierney, mcginn and robbo who can create something out of nothing. 

[Whelky75]

I think also we have to respect what the Scotland teams of the 1990s achieved. In a total of 20 qualifying matches for Euro ‘96 and World Cup ‘98, Scotland kept 15 clean sheets and only conceded 6 goals. That was the best defensive record in all of Europe, by a reasonable distance, for teams who competed in both qualifying campaigns.
 

The current team haven’t achieved anything like that yet. This is surely a conversation which should only take place if the current team go on to achieve much greater things.

At the moment, it seems like a lot of recency bias and wishful thinking. Understandable that some of that may creep in at a time like this, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of any of our great teams or achievements of the past.