Indyref 2 (2)

[PapofGlencoe]

49 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

It wasn't a "disgrace". The Irish constitution prohibited same sex marriage. All amendments to the constitution require a referendum, hence the need to put it to a public vote.

 

 

 

I don't think minority rights should be for the cut and thrust of a public referendum.  Still think it's a disgrace for that to happen.  Even if it is their process, shouldn't have been.

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I don't think minority rights should be for the cut and thrust of a public referendum.  Still think it's a disgrace for that to happen.  Even if it is their process, shouldn't have been.

It’s Ireland, as Dave has pointed out, they have a written constitution and any changes to that have to be passed by a referendum.  They do this all the time, they know what they’re doing. 

[TDYER63]

7 minutes ago, aaid said:

It’s Ireland, as Dave has pointed out, they have a written constitution and any changes to that have to be passed by a referendum.  They do this all the time, they know what they’re doing. 

Funny how some countries can have regular referendums with no fuss whatsoever yet we look for 2 over a course of 8 years and we are ‘obsessed’ . 

[TDYER63]

20 hours ago, Malcolm said:

I was careful with my words.  I never said against it, but impacted by it.  You might be totally fine with men in women only spaces and sports.

Well you weren’t that careful, I dont imagine women who have no interest in sports are impacted much.

But you weren’t really referring to sport. 

[Dave78]

25 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I don't think minority rights should be for the cut and thrust of a public referendum.  Still think it's a disgrace for that to happen.  Even if it is their process, shouldn't have been.

Fair enough.

The fact Ireland is the only country where it was put to the public (and passed by nearly a two thirds majority) is actually seen as a point of pride by progressives here, and the opposite of a disgrace.

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Dave78

[Dave78]

Listened to the Lesley Riddoch podcast re the GRR on the way home. Only halfway through, but seemed like intelligent analysis to me.

https://share.transistor.fm/s/17f52644

[hampden_loon2878]

I think there’s one thing that we can l agree on, sturgeon is not chasing policies that will further the case for independence, if anyone can prove otherwise, I would love to hear it 

[kumnio]

29 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

I think there’s one thing that we can l agree on, sturgeon is not chasing policies that will further the case for independence, if anyone can prove otherwise, I would love to hear it 

Support for independence has increased. Isn't that enough proof?

Strangely enough, while in government, they have to govern. If they concentrated purely 100% on independence, it would do more harm than good.

[TDYER63]

16 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

I think there’s one thing that we can l agree on, sturgeon is not chasing policies that will further the case for independence, if anyone can prove otherwise, I would love to hear it 

I agree that this particular policy is hardly a vote winner . Although this hornets nest has most definitely been stirred up deliberately for political gain, there is absolutely no way this would have been given as much attention if it was Wales,  for example,  who incidentally want to implement the same thing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-64228256.amp

This is all about the UK government flexing their power and its sad to see that people  who support independence are happy to go along with it because its a policy they dont like. Scotland is kidding itself on. We are nowhere ready for big boy pants with that attitude. 

[aaid]

27 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I agree that this particular policy is hardly a vote winner . Although this hornets nest has most definitely been stirred up deliberately for political gain, there is absolutely no way this would have been given as much attention if it was Wales,  for example,  who incidentally want to implement the same thing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-64228256.amp

This is all about the UK government flexing their power and its sad to see that people  who support independence are happy to go along with it because its a policy they dont like. Scotland is kidding itself on. We are nowhere ready for big boy pants with that attitude. 

Its funny that all the things he includes in the category of being "bad for independence", such as this bill, anything to do with climate change, anything impacting the fishing industry and the like are the sort of policies that might expect someone who is a self-admitted right of centre, north east dwelling oll worker.

[aaid]

On 1/14/2023 at 3:37 PM, Ally Bongo said:

https://www.snp.org/the-snps-nec-agrees-resolution-to-be-debated-at-special-conference/

If this is adopted they can fuck right off

I am not voting for another referendum

I wasn’t even aware that the motion had been leaked.  I’d been out at football all day and when I got back I saw the motion in my inbox.

I was pretty confused about the reaction as Nicola Sturgeon was asked about it at the NHS briefing yesterday and she brushed it off with “I made my point clear on this last summer” response, ie, a defacto referendum.  Then today, I saw Stephen Flynn being interviewed and he was also clear he was talking about a defacto referendum.

I thought with the defection to Alba, we’d got rid of all the rats on the NEC, hopefully they’ll find out who it was.

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23257873.inside-story-anger-snp-de-facto-referendum-motion-leaks/

[hampden_loon2878]

41 minutes ago, aaid said:

Its funny that all the things he includes in the category of being "bad for independence", such as this bill, anything to do with climate change, anything impacting the fishing industry and the like are the sort of policies that might expect someone who is a self-admitted right of centre, north east dwelling oll worker.

My politics is bang in the middle, Its funny that all the things you argue are  "good for independence", such as this bill, anything to do with marginalising the oil or the fishing industry and the like are the sort of policies that might expect someone who is employed by the snp, doesn’t stay in Scotland with no idea of the mood or feel of the public,, you don’t give two shits about independence do you? 

[hampden_loon2878]

16 minutes ago, aaid said:

I wasn’t even aware that the motion had been leaked.  I’d been out at football all day and when I got back I saw the motion in my inbox.

I was pretty confused about the reaction as Nicola Sturgeon was asked about it at the NHS briefing yesterday and she brushed it off with “I made my point clear on this last summer” response, ie, a defacto referendum.  Then today, I saw Stephen Flynn being interviewed and he was also clear he was talking about a defacto referendum.

I thought with the defection to Alba, we’d got rid of all the rats on the NEC, hopefully they’ll find out who it was.

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23257873.inside-story-anger-snp-de-facto-referendum-motion-leaks/

The party is massively fucked at sturgo and her vanity crusade,,,of course there are going to be leaks 

[hampden_loon2878]

22 minutes ago, aaid said:

I wasn’t even aware that the motion had been leaked.  I’d been out at football all day and when I got back I saw the motion in my inbox.

I was pretty confused about the reaction as Nicola Sturgeon was asked about it at the NHS briefing yesterday and she brushed it off with “I made my point clear on this last summer” response, ie, a defacto referendum.  Then today, I saw Stephen Flynn being interviewed and he was also clear he was talking about a defacto referendum.

I thought with the defection to Alba, we’d got rid of all the rats on the NEC, hopefully they’ll find out who it was.

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23257873.inside-story-anger-snp-de-facto-referendum-motion-leaks/

Do you think any of the policies of late have  increased support for independence?

[hampden_loon2878]

1 hour ago, kumnio said:

Support for independence has increased. Isn't that enough proof?

Strangely enough, while in government, they have to govern. If they concentrated purely 100% on independence, it would do more harm than good.

Increased due to brexit and the shit show going on in Westminster. And we are speaking what 3 point increase?

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

My politics is bang in the middle, Its funny that all the things you argue are  "good for independence", such as this bill, anything to do with marginalising the oil or the fishing industry and the like are the sort of policies that might expect someone who is employed by the snp, doesn’t stay in Scotland with no idea of the mood or feel of the public,, you don’t give two shits about independence do you? 

Well let’s just start with Brexit shall we.  You were against that, accused her of grandstanding if I remember, despite 62% of the electorate voting against it.    There s now 72% of the electorate who want to rejoin.  And then we can go on from there.

i do live in England,  I’m not Ann Blackford, I don’t work for the SNP or any of the other snide little digs you like to have.

if you really want to know who I am, I’ve told you who you need to go and talk to but, I’ve known her for forty years this year, and she will let me know.

[Caledonian Craig]

6 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Increased due to brexit and the shit show going on in Westminster. And we are speaking what 3 point increase?

Certainly an increase on your super hero, wonderman, can do no wrong, sun shines out of his arse, get him back in Salmond days.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[PapofGlencoe]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

It’s Ireland, as Dave has pointed out, they have a written constitution and any changes to that have to be passed by a referendum.  They do this all the time, they know what they’re doing. 

Yeah didn't know that.  Another reason for hoping we never have one.  Imagine doing section 28 or abortion by referendum.  Just awful. 

 

For what it's worth the UK gvt case looks fairly weak apart from single sex associations , like sports and other female only groups.

wouldn't be surprised if Scots parliament might win the court case.

 

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Certainly an increase on your super hero, wonderman, can do no wrong, sun shines out of his arse, get him back in Salmond days.

Alex the loser.

In all his years as SNP leader over two periods he won the grand total of 2 Holyrood elections - one by a single seat - and one Local council election.

I’ve lost count of the number of elections he lost.  I’ve lost count of the number of elections Nicola Sturgeon has won but I know the number she’s lost, it’s a round number.  

[PapofGlencoe]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Certainly an increase on your super hero, wonderman, can do no wrong, sun shines out of his arse, get him back in Salmond days.

If we'd had Salmond and Sturgeon on the same page we'd be on course for clear majorities in my opinion.  However it came about, either by Salmond's own hand or otherwise it's not been to the good.  All the splits have come from this really.  

[Malcolm]

3 minutes ago, aaid said:

Alex the loser.

In all his years as SNP leader over two periods he won the grand total of 2 Holyrood elections - one by a single seat - and one Local council election.

I’ve lost count of the number of elections he lost.  I’ve lost count of the number of elections Nicola Sturgeon has won but I know the number she’s lost, it’s a round number.  

all built on the back of the referendum.  I didn’t vote snp before then, and I certainly now would be far more likely to vote snp with salmond in charge than Nicola.

[PapofGlencoe]

Salmond was a brilliant political operator that took the cause from small fry to government. And defeat into a victory for his successor.  His credibility is now shot but pretending he wasn't instrumental is pure revisionism.  

Sturgeon is as good.  I don't know how she keeps going quite frankly.

We've not really got anyone to lace either's shoes thereafter. Probably because people like that don't come around all that often.

Edited January 17, 2023 by PapofGlencoe

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

all built on the back of the referendum.  I didn’t vote snp before then, and I certainly now would be far more likely to vote snp with salmond in charge than Nicola.

Malcolm the Tory giving his backing to Salmond tells you all you need to know. 

[hampden_loon2878]

27 minutes ago, aaid said:

Well let’s just start with Brexit shall we.  You were against that, accused her of grandstanding if I remember, despite 62% of the electorate voting against it.    There s now 72% of the electorate who want to rejoin.  And then we can go on from there.

i do live in England,  I’m not Ann Blackford, I don’t work for the SNP or any of the other snide little digs you like to have.

if you really want to know who I am, I’ve told you who you need to go and talk to but, I’ve known her for forty years this year, and she will let me know.

I wanted brexit because it would increase the likelihood of independence and would end up with a iscotland with a lower relationship with the EU such as efta, I couldn’t care who you are, you don’t stay in scotland and haven’t even a vote that would matter in scotland, yet you come across with your condescending bullshit like you know better than everyone

[aaid]

Just now, hampden_loon2878 said:

I wanted brexit because it would increase the likelihood of independence and would end up with a iscotland with a lower relationship with the EU such as efta

And how’s that working out for you?