Indyref 2 (2)

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Yes i agree with most of this but it's not a full answer.

most sport is not international, it's not even particularly about medals.  most sport is down your local club.  to enjoy as a normal part of everyday life.  which was why my query was about local, amateur sport.  although i don't think the international angle solves it anyway.

if a bill says they are actual women, then can these bodies discriminate or not?  Does the Equality Act allow for sex segregated spaces?  it seems it does.  but does the Scottish bill change a trans person into a literal women in the law?  It's a fairly simply question.  if it does, then does it restrict the ability to discriminate?  which law says they're literally a women and which law states you cannot ask if someones has a GRC?  unless im missing something there are issues here.  Even if it was all based on international sporting bodies, FIFA law does not trump national law surely.  In fact if an international sporting body decided they should discriminate, does the Scottish law and Equality Act allow them to do this in Scotland?

if none of this means a translad can make a legal case against a local girls boxing club then fair doos.  I've just not seen anyone state this as a certainty.  surely this should be beyond doubt.      

 

Trans people can make a case *today* with respect to discrimination, I can’t say that any differently.   However, if that discrimination is seen to be proportionate under the Equalities Act, then that will fail.

This is what the UK Sports Council says about sports and transgender - page 4 summarises the position.

https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance for Transgender Inclusion in Domestic Sport 2021 - Summary of Background Documents.pdf

 

[PapofGlencoe]

6 minutes ago, aaid said:

Trans people can make a case *today* with respect to discrimination, I can’t say that any differently.   However, if that discrimination is seen to be proportionate under the Equalities Act, then that will fail.

This is what the UK Sports Council says about sports and transgender - page 4 summarises the position.

https://equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance for Transgender Inclusion in Domestic Sport 2021 - Summary of Background Documents.pdf

 

don't think it answers the question of whether the new scottish law makes it more difficult to invoke the exception thus affecting the equality law.  I suppose the courts will decide.  What got my interest was the idea a trans person becomes literally the sex they claim to be in the eyes of the law, no longer a transperson, and they cannot be asked if they have a certificate.  That seems to me to have a consequence.  but for more intelligent folk to work out.

[aaid]

Alister Jack can’t even give the reasons why he thinks this impacts on reserved matters.

Anytime he’s asked, all he can say is “wait for the written reasons”

[ParisInAKilt]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

With respect, that’s lazy bullshit.  The reason why Holyrood legislation is routinely challenged is because the Scotland Act allows it.   Westminster legislation is not subject to the same level of scrutiny, no-one can veto it, because WM is sovereign.  The operation of laws can be subject to judicial review but only after it has taken effect and only when it has had an impact.

If you think that this law has been badly drafted, please give examples.

So why has this happened?

[aaid]

Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

So why has this happened?

Why has what happened?   The UKG blocking it, I suspect that’s because they are looking to pick a fight with the SG because they’ve got nothing else.

[Och Aye]

1 minute ago, aaid said:

Why has what happened?   The UKG blocking it, I suspect that’s because they are looking to pick a fight with the SG because they’ve got nothing else.

Exactly, an opportunity to create division.

[Caledonian Craig]

And just a thought here for those claiming that there is more freedom for decisions locked into the UK than independent in the EU. Denmark (in the EU) passed a Transgender Bill over a decade ago and the EU did not trample all over them.

[aaid]

5 hours ago, aaid said:

For someone who generally has plenty to say on this subject, Joanna Cherry has been very quiet for the last 24 hours.

Fair play to her.

 

[ParisInAKilt]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

Why has what happened?   The UKG blocking it, I suspect that’s because they are looking to pick a fight with the SG because they’ve got nothing else.

Sounds a bit weak. 

[aaid]

1 minute ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Sounds a bit weak. 

Compared to “write it better then”?

[aaid]

I’m watching Parliament TV so no one else has to but this is a complete farce.

Alister Jack just faced an hour of questions where he didn’t outline the detail behind the section 35 order but rather he said “it’s all outlined in the Statement of Reasons”.   The statement of reasons, hadn’t been published.

There’s now an emergency debate, the statement of reasons has just been published, so Steven Flynn is having to start the debate while all the SNP MPs are scouring the document looking for lines.

 

[aaid]

So the nub of the UK Government’s objection seems to be that Gender Recognition is devolved but shouldn’t be or at least,  don’t change it to be different from the UK.

[PapofGlencoe]

47 minutes ago, aaid said:

I’m watching Parliament TV so no one else has to but this is a complete farce.

Alister Jack just faced an hour of questions where he didn’t outline the detail behind the section 35 order but rather he said “it’s all outlined in the Statement of Reasons”.   The statement of reasons, hadn’t been published.

There’s now an emergency debate, the statement of reasons has just been published, so Steven Flynn is having to start the debate while all the SNP MPs are scouring the document looking for lines.

 

Agree, i thought Flynn put in a good speech.  not that the two female MPs behind him would have noticed.  addicted to their phones throughout.  

[vanderark14]

35 minutes ago, aaid said:

So the nub of the UK Government’s objection seems to be that Gender Recognition is devolved but shouldn’t be or at least,  don’t change it to be different from the UK.

Its a dangerous move by Westminster IMO, they will surely have human rights organisations, LGBT organisations all over them now. No?

 

[aaid]

20 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Agree, i thought Flynn put in a good speech.  not that the two female MPs behind him would have noticed.  addicted to their phones throughout.  

How do you know they’re not communicating with staff - or other MPs - who are going through the document?

[aaid]

Just now, vanderark14 said:

Its a dangerous move by Westminster IMO, they will surely have human rights organisations, LGBT organisations all over them now. No?

 

I kid you not, but one of the reasons is that HMRC computer systems cannot change the sex identifier for a 16/17 year old.

[vanderark14]

Just now, aaid said:

I kid you not, but one of the reasons is that HMRC computer systems cannot change the sex identifier for a 16/17 year old.

🤣 I shouldn't laugh but I did

I am still in the camp that i don't think this is going to harm independence in the long run but I could be wrong. Aren't there many other countries with the same Gender equality laws?

 

[Ally Bongo]

11 minutes ago, aaid said:

I kid you not, but one of the reasons is that HMRC computer systems cannot change the sex identifier for a 16/17 year old.

If that is one of the Colonial Officer's reasons then i can guarantee it is an utter lie as the TBS system overrides the SA and PAYE systems which are all linked

Edited January 17, 2023 by Ally Bongo

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

If that is one of the Colonial Officer's reasons then i can guarantee it is an utter lie

Quote

1. If the Bill were enacted, HMRC would need to explore whether consequential changes to IT infrastructure were possible. Changes to HMRC IT can have consequential impacts on other departments due to integrated systems. ↩

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-reasons-related-to-the-use-of-section-35-of-the-scotland-act-1998/html-version

[Dave78]

5 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Like the gay marriage bill in Ireland, i can't believe that was put to a public vote.  A disgrace.   

 

It wasn't a "disgrace". The Irish constitution prohibited same sex marriage. All amendments to the constitution require a referendum, hence the need to put it to a public vote.

 

 

 

[sjd1972]

26 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

🤣 I shouldn't laugh but I did

I am still in the camp that i don't think this is going to harm independence in the long run but I could be wrong. Aren't there many other countries with the same Gender equality laws?

 

Denmark, Portugal, Belgium and Ireland to name but a few.  Doesn't appear to have caused societal breakdown in those places as far as I can see.  Also no great upsurge in Irish people wanting to come back under London rule either.😉

[vanderark14]

3 minutes ago, sjd1972 said:

Denmark, Portugal, Belgium and Ireland to name but a few.  Doesn't appear to have caused societal breakdown in those places as far as I can see.  Also no great upsurge in Irish people wanting to come back under London rule either.😉

I assume the women of these countries have not suffered under these terrible conditions?1

[aaid]

14 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

It wasn't a "disgrace". The Irish constitution prohibited same sex marriage. All amendments to the constitution require a referendum, hence the need to put it to a public vote.

 

Dave, apparently its only Scottish trans-women that will come over the border to molest fair English Roses - despite the Common Travel area meaning that they can more freely.  

I'm paraphrasing, but it does indeed say that.

[Ally Bongo]

34 minutes ago, aaid said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-reasons-related-to-the-use-of-section-35-of-the-scotland-act-1998/html-version

Definitely a lie

Everyone is allocated a National Insurance number on their birth registration

Most people think this happens at 16 - it doesnt

That National Insurance number appears on the TBS system in the Tax Office shortly after it is allocated

There is no PAYE record (NPS) or live DWP record as the individual isnt working yet or claiming benefits/aged 16

The TBS system lets you amend everything - Date of Birth, Gender, Deceased date and once it is updated it maps over to the DWP dormant record

I know this because there are many instances where a trust has to be set up for a child

[aaid]

11 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Definitely a lie

Everyone is allocated a National Insurance number on their birth registration

Most people think this happens at 16 - it doesnt

That National Insurance number appears on the TBS system in the Tax Office shortly after it is allocated

There is no PAYE record (NPS) or live DWP record as the individual isnt working yet or claiming benefits/aged 16

The TBS system lets you amend everything - Date of Birth, Gender, Deceased date and once it is updated it maps over to the DWP dormant record

I know this because there are many instances where a trust has to be set up for a child

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