Indyref 2 (2)

[PapofGlencoe]

For the hard of reading.  NO I am not suggesting putting Labour in power to get independence.  

or am i?😄

maybe we can get some tartan sleeper agents infiltrated into the traditional unionists parties.  see how they like their own medicine.

[PapofGlencoe]

42 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

I'm struggling to understand why you can't see Pap's point.

You'll know the old truism, that political oppositions don't win elections, government's lose them. If the SNP lose power, then i'm fairly sure they'll eventually come back like a tide to win again (which will actually deliver indyref2 and IMO independence).

in a nutshell.  It's not what I would want to happen, i'd have independence yesterday.  It's how i see it happening (potentially).

If the "unionists" get in, on the big question it's not resolved.  they'll know it's a rejection of the SNP, not independence.  They'll either tread carefully or they'll splurge on unionism.  I expect the latter with consequences.

[Ally Bongo]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/62ef0900-1770-11ee-b768-bb6d328f2d92?shareToken=7ba2df1e400e336ef430bddf9aae98fd

Irvine Welsh: Trans debate ‘a strange hill for SNP to die on’

Irvine Welsh has criticised the SNP for sidelining the independence movement and branded the trans debate as a “strange hill for a party that was so ascendant to die on”.

The bestselling Scottish novelist said that the public did not “equate . . . independence with the SNP any more” and instead viewed it as a “vaguely social democratic local government”.

Irvine, 64, said that people had been supportive of the party’s policies on prescription charges and college fees, but added: “I think the whole social engineering programme that they got into in the trans debate, I just don’t think that was a thing for most people. I think that it seemed to be a strange kind of hill for a party that was so ascendant to die on.” The Trainspotting author made the comments during an episode of the Beth Rigby Interviews series on Sky News.

On the SNP’s gender recognition reforms, which resulted in a toxic debate about women’s rights and the rights of trans people in Scotland, he said: “It showed the limits of the idea that you can build a country with the paltry institutions that you’ve had, that’s about 8 per cent of the functions of government.

“People thought: ‘Well, you keep your eye on the ball of independence and then we can have a healthy debate about which type of country we want to build.’ But you can’t impose a view of a country you want to build, on a country that doesn’t really exist as a state yet.”

He described the resignation of Nicola Sturgeon as first minister as an “incredible implosion”.

 

Welsh also discussed his use of a trans sensitivity proofreader for his work amid fears of “wounding” certain audiences. He used the reader out of fear of being “cancelled” and said that as an author it was important to keep an open mind about a new culture in which “archetypes haven’t been established yet”.

His most recent novel, The Long Knives, features trans characters, but the veteran writer said he had not been concerned with exploring a topic surrounded by an often “toxic debate”.

“As a writer, you have to take on kind of everything that’s coming. You have to be interested in it,” he said. “To me, it’s about trying to learn what’s going on. It’s like trying to learn through fiction, through creating characters, to explore all those different themes.

“The first time I ever had a sensitivity reader [was] for the last book, The Long Knives, which had trans characters.”

He added: “I thought, ‘I’m not going to like this at all. This is like censorship against us.’ [But] the trans sensitivity reader was absolutely brilliant, I had completely had the wrong end of the stick.”

Welsh said his sensitivity reader had wanted to make the book as authentic as possible, “and it did help to make the book better”.

Asked whether his motivation to employ a sensitivity reader for the book was to avoid being “cancelled”, Welsh replied: “It wasn’t so much of it being cancelled. But what you don’t want to do is to write something that is kind of hurtful or wounding to people and is misrepresenting them.

“There’s all sorts of different trans experiences. So you want to have as many of them in if you like, as possible. Because the culture of it all is so new. Those archetypes haven’t been established yet like they have in other areas. So, you have to have an internal eye for that. You have to listen to people and you have to research. You must keep an open mind about the whole thing.”

Welsh added that he had “tremendous respect” for fellow Scottish author JK Rowling, who has faced a backlash online for her own views on trans issues, and the potential conflicts with women’s rights.

“I think that people do agree on the enemy for just about everybody is kind of violent misogyny [and] violent, misogynistic characters,” he said. “And it doesn’t matter whether a violent, misogynistic man is wearing a suit or a Stone Island jacket or a dress.

“It doesn’t mean you know there’s not still a threat and a menace to women. And it doesn’t matter what they call themselves. So you have to take that reality into account. You want to see people like that who’ve had that kind of experience being represented and looked after and taken care of.”

[phart]

9 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/62ef0900-1770-11ee-b768-bb6d328f2d92?shareToken=7ba2df1e400e336ef430bddf9aae98fd

."He used the reader out of fear of being “cancelled..."

 

 

Asked whether his motivation to employ a sensitivity reader for the book was to avoid being “cancelled”, Welsh replied: “It wasn’t so much of it being cancelled. But what you don’t want to do is to write something that is kind of hurtful or wounding to people and is misrepresenting them.

 

Got to love how journalists self-insert shit

I know this isn't the main point of the article just stuck out when you read the actual article.

[TDYER63]

13 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/62ef0900-1770-11ee-b768-bb6d328f2d92?shareToken=7ba2df1e400e336ef430bddf9aae98fd

Irvine Welsh: Trans debate ‘a strange hill for SNP to die on’

Irvine Welsh has criticised the SNP for sidelining the independence movement and branded the trans debate as a “strange hill for a party that was so ascendant to die on”.

The bestselling Scottish novelist said that the public did not “equate . . . independence with the SNP any more” and instead viewed it as a “vaguely social democratic local government”.

Irvine, 64, said that people had been supportive of the party’s policies on prescription charges and college fees, but added: “I think the whole social engineering programme that they got into in the trans debate, I just don’t think that was a thing for most people. I think that it seemed to be a strange kind of hill for a party that was so ascendant to die on.” The Trainspotting author made the comments during an episode of the Beth Rigby Interviews series on Sky News.

On the SNP’s gender recognition reforms, which resulted in a toxic debate about women’s rights and the rights of trans people in Scotland, he said: “It showed the limits of the idea that you can build a country with the paltry institutions that you’ve had, that’s about 8 per cent of the functions of government.

“People thought: ‘Well, you keep your eye on the ball of independence and then we can have a healthy debate about which type of country we want to build.’ But you can’t impose a view of a country you want to build, on a country that doesn’t really exist as a state yet.”

He described the resignation of Nicola Sturgeon as first minister as an “incredible implosion”.

 

Welsh also discussed his use of a trans sensitivity proofreader for his work amid fears of “wounding” certain audiences. He used the reader out of fear of being “cancelled” and said that as an author it was important to keep an open mind about a new culture in which “archetypes haven’t been established yet”.

His most recent novel, The Long Knives, features trans characters, but the veteran writer said he had not been concerned with exploring a topic surrounded by an often “toxic debate”.

“As a writer, you have to take on kind of everything that’s coming. You have to be interested in it,” he said. “To me, it’s about trying to learn what’s going on. It’s like trying to learn through fiction, through creating characters, to explore all those different themes.

“The first time I ever had a sensitivity reader [was] for the last book, The Long Knives, which had trans characters.”

He added: “I thought, ‘I’m not going to like this at all. This is like censorship against us.’ [But] the trans sensitivity reader was absolutely brilliant, I had completely had the wrong end of the stick.”

Welsh said his sensitivity reader had wanted to make the book as authentic as possible, “and it did help to make the book better”.

Asked whether his motivation to employ a sensitivity reader for the book was to avoid being “cancelled”, Welsh replied: “It wasn’t so much of it being cancelled. But what you don’t want to do is to write something that is kind of hurtful or wounding to people and is misrepresenting them.

“There’s all sorts of different trans experiences. So you want to have as many of them in if you like, as possible. Because the culture of it all is so new. Those archetypes haven’t been established yet like they have in other areas. So, you have to have an internal eye for that. You have to listen to people and you have to research. You must keep an open mind about the whole thing.”

Welsh added that he had “tremendous respect” for fellow Scottish author JK Rowling, who has faced a backlash online for her own views on trans issues, and the potential conflicts with women’s rights.

“I think that people do agree on the enemy for just about everybody is kind of violent misogyny [and] violent, misogynistic characters,” he said. “And it doesn’t matter whether a violent, misogynistic man is wearing a suit or a Stone Island jacket or a dress.

“It doesn’t mean you know there’s not still a threat and a menace to women. And it doesn’t matter what they call themselves. So you have to take that reality into account. You want to see people like that who’ve had that kind of experience being represented and looked after and taken care of.”

I think I must be reading this wrong. It sounds like he is criticising the SG for getting too involved in a subject the country isn’t interested in/ not ready for, yet goes on to talk about writing a book with trans characters and trying to learn and keep an open mind on things. Is this not a bit contradictory ?

In my defence I am hungover and clearly not understanding it properly. 
 

[hampden_loon2878]

15 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/62ef0900-1770-11ee-b768-bb6d328f2d92?shareToken=7ba2df1e400e336ef430bddf9aae98fd

Irvine Welsh: Trans debate ‘a strange hill for SNP to die on’

Irvine Welsh has criticised the SNP for sidelining the independence movement and branded the trans debate as a “strange hill for a party that was so ascendant to die on”.

The bestselling Scottish novelist said that the public did not “equate . . . independence with the SNP any more” and instead viewed it as a “vaguely social democratic local government”.

Irvine, 64, said that people had been supportive of the party’s policies on prescription charges and college fees, but added: “I think the whole social engineering programme that they got into in the trans debate, I just don’t think that was a thing for most people. I think that it seemed to be a strange kind of hill for a party that was so ascendant to die on.” The Trainspotting author made the comments during an episode of the Beth Rigby Interviews series on Sky News.

On the SNP’s gender recognition reforms, which resulted in a toxic debate about women’s rights and the rights of trans people in Scotland, he said: “It showed the limits of the idea that you can build a country with the paltry institutions that you’ve had, that’s about 8 per cent of the functions of government.

“People thought: ‘Well, you keep your eye on the ball of independence and then we can have a healthy debate about which type of country we want to build.’ But you can’t impose a view of a country you want to build, on a country that doesn’t really exist as a state yet.”

He described the resignation of Nicola Sturgeon as first minister as an “incredible implosion”.

 

Welsh also discussed his use of a trans sensitivity proofreader for his work amid fears of “wounding” certain audiences. He used the reader out of fear of being “cancelled” and said that as an author it was important to keep an open mind about a new culture in which “archetypes haven’t been established yet”.

His most recent novel, The Long Knives, features trans characters, but the veteran writer said he had not been concerned with exploring a topic surrounded by an often “toxic debate”.

“As a writer, you have to take on kind of everything that’s coming. You have to be interested in it,” he said. “To me, it’s about trying to learn what’s going on. It’s like trying to learn through fiction, through creating characters, to explore all those different themes.

“The first time I ever had a sensitivity reader [was] for the last book, The Long Knives, which had trans characters.”

He added: “I thought, ‘I’m not going to like this at all. This is like censorship against us.’ [But] the trans sensitivity reader was absolutely brilliant, I had completely had the wrong end of the stick.”

Welsh said his sensitivity reader had wanted to make the book as authentic as possible, “and it did help to make the book better”.

Asked whether his motivation to employ a sensitivity reader for the book was to avoid being “cancelled”, Welsh replied: “It wasn’t so much of it being cancelled. But what you don’t want to do is to write something that is kind of hurtful or wounding to people and is misrepresenting them.

“There’s all sorts of different trans experiences. So you want to have as many of them in if you like, as possible. Because the culture of it all is so new. Those archetypes haven’t been established yet like they have in other areas. So, you have to have an internal eye for that. You have to listen to people and you have to research. You must keep an open mind about the whole thing.”

Welsh added that he had “tremendous respect” for fellow Scottish author JK Rowling, who has faced a backlash online for her own views on trans issues, and the potential conflicts with women’s rights.

“I think that people do agree on the enemy for just about everybody is kind of violent misogyny [and] violent, misogynistic characters,” he said. “And it doesn’t matter whether a violent, misogynistic man is wearing a suit or a Stone Island jacket or a dress.

“It doesn’t mean you know there’s not still a threat and a menace to women. And it doesn’t matter what they call themselves. So you have to take that reality into account. You want to see people like that who’ve had that kind of experience being represented and looked after and taken care of.”

i agree wholeheartedly and tbh there is a hint of sabotage 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

I think I must be reading this wrong. It sounds like he is criticising the SG for getting too involved in a subject the country isn’t interested in/ not ready for, yet goes on to talk about writing a book with trans characters and trying to learn and keep an open mind on things. Is this not a bit contradictory ?

In my defence I am hungover and clearly not understanding it properly. 
 

It is basically what many people on here have said for the last few years - the party of Independence should be parking extremely divisive issues until we have Independence - otherwise they might not be the Governing party in Holyrood which would shelve Independence 

[Hertsscot]

5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

It is basically what many people on here have said for the last few years - the party of Independence should be parking extremely divisive issues until we have Independence - otherwise they might not be the Governing party in Holyrood which would shelve Independence 

I agree. Though there are probably three things to be said in the SNPs defence.

1. That all political parties in the UK were signing up to these reforms until very recently.  The Tories only dropped it when Johnson came to power, a culture was being useful to deflect from all the rubbish coming from his party.

2. These are reforms that were backed by MSPs from all parties.

3. As the party in Government they do have a duty to govern for all the citizens of Scotland and rightly, or wrongly, saw this as making life a bit easier for a small minority group.

[sjd1972]

Orkney Islands council exploring the possibility of leaving the UK and becoming part of Norway.  Be great if they could take the rest of us with them.

[scotlad]

17 minutes ago, sjd1972 said:

Orkney Islands council exploring the possibility of leaving the UK and becoming part of Norway.  Be great if they could take the rest of us with them.

The BBC were creaming themselves over that story yesterday.  🙄

[Toepoke]

2 hours ago, scotlad said:

The BBC were creaming themselves over that story yesterday.  🙄

Surprised at that, it's not exactly going to harm the SNP independence vote.

 

[Shaundy]

Really enjoyed the coverage from beeb about Orkney independence. Flipping just a short time between msn coverage on the Beeb , sky and gbeebies current affairs is enough to give a gist of uk ruling bodies. 
did like the link to Irvine Welsh . An unsurprisingly articulate summary of where we’re at. With subtle predictable deviance from the source.

[TDYER63]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:04 PM, Ally Bongo said:

It is basically what many people on here have said for the last few years - the party of Independence should be parking extremely divisive issues until we have Independence - otherwise they might not be the Governing party in Holyrood which would shelve Independence 

Don’t disagree but….

22 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I agree. Though there are probably three things to be said in the SNPs defence.

1. That all political parties in the UK were signing up to these reforms until very recently.  The Tories only dropped it when Johnson came to power, a culture was being useful to deflect from all the rubbish coming from his party.

2. These are reforms that were backed by MSPs from all parties.

3. As the party in Government they do have a duty to govern for all the citizens of Scotland and rightly, or wrongly, saw this as making life a bit easier for a small minority group.

Seconded.

There is also a helluva lot of people who claim to support independence that have done the oppositions job and helped stir the shit . 

[Shaundy]

Anyone else reckon development in the Northern Ireland part of the UNited Kingdom of blah blah is much more likely to develop an irresistible moment before the well done assassination of the SNP is recovered from ? 

[Alibi]

Can't work out just how the SNP have got themselves into such a mess - almost as if they have tried to sabotage indy deliberately with a load of really stupid ill-conceived policies.  Has the party been infiltrated at a high level?  This type of car crash doesn't happen by accident.  Radical change is needed urgently, starting with getting rid of the utterly woeful Humza Yousaf and his vague and ever-changing strategy to get indy.  He really looks like a dead man walking every time he opens his mouth, and it's made worse that so many folk are pretending that they think he's great.  A blind man can see he's drowning.

[hampden_loon2878]

38 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Can't work out just how the SNP have got themselves into such a mess - almost as if they have tried to sabotage indy deliberately with a load of really stupid ill-conceived policies.  Has the party been infiltrated at a high level?  This type of car crash doesn't happen by accident.  Radical change is needed urgently, starting with getting rid of the utterly woeful Humza Yousaf and his vague and ever-changing strategy to get indy.  He really looks like a dead man walking every time he opens his mouth, and it's made worse that so many folk are pretending that they think he's great.  A blind man can see he's drowning.

its becoming clear as day what's went on, as you say this type of down fall doesn't happen deliberately, they could have sat and did nothing anf that would be better than the position we are in at the moment, the western isles to me is strategically one of the most important seats that the SNP have to hold, i said this prior to the 2017 snap election. its as if they have willingly went after the vote losing policy of the HMPSA'S... Waken up everyone, this is not been by mistake 

[Och Aye]

Mhari Black standing down as MP. 

[TDYER63]

14 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

Mhari Black standing down as MP. 

I am surprised she lasted this long. Regardless of how people feel about her , good or bad, I always felt Westminster was too archaic for her. 

[scotlad]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:53 PM, Toepoke said:

Surprised at that, it's not exactly going to harm the SNP independence vote.

 

It's a variation on the old unionist trope: "oh, but what if Orkney and the Shetlands decide to leave Scotland??" (which makes about as much sense as asking what if Berwick decides to to leave England but curiously that's never factored into the equation).

Apparently the council leader behind the idea is an arch-unionist too so he's almost certainly being disingenuous; and let's face it, the British state has quite the track record of trying to divide countries that show an inclination towards gaining independence from them.

[ParisInAKilt]

4 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am surprised she lasted this long. Regardless of how people feel about her , good or bad, I always felt Westminster was too archaic for her. 

Sure the wages and expenses softened the blow. 

Shame watching her potentially lose her seat would have been entertaining 

[aaid]

20 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Don’t disagree but….

Seconded.

There is also a helluva lot of people who claim to support independence that have done the oppositions job and helped stir the shit . 

And here are two of them below 

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

Can't work out just how the SNP have got themselves into such a mess - almost as if they have tried to sabotage indy deliberately with a load of really stupid ill-conceived policies.  Has the party been infiltrated at a high level?  This type of car crash doesn't happen by accident.  Radical change is needed urgently, starting with getting rid of the utterly woeful Humza Yousaf and his vague and ever-changing strategy to get indy.  He really looks like a dead man walking every time he opens his mouth, and it's made worse that so many folk are pretending that they think he's great.  A blind man can see he's drowning.

 

30 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

its becoming clear as day what's went on, as you say this type of down fall doesn't happen deliberately, they could have sat and did nothing anf that would be better than the position we are in at the moment, the western isles to me is strategically one of the most important seats that the SNP have to hold, i said this prior to the 2017 snap election. its as if they have willingly went after the vote losing policy of the HMPSA'S... Waken up everyone, this is not been by mistake 

 

[TDYER63]

5 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Sure the wages and expenses softened the blow. 

Shame watching her potentially lose her seat would have been entertaining 

I have no doubt it would.

I am not a particular fan of her but she has been ill so its not exactly a surprise. Not sure people realise the pressure it would have on a 20 yr old , as she was at the time. 
 

 

[hampden_loon2878]

4 minutes ago, aaid said:

And here are two of them below 

 

 

you and you likes will be remembered for pulling the SNP down, so arrogant and obnoxious and full of self importance. Slowly but surley, everything i have warned about is now happening, not that it was hard to see coming, lets see you defend sturgeons SNP when we become a fringe party again

[Ally Bongo]

Should start a thread on how many SNP MPs are not standing in the next election - so far;

Ian Blackford

Stewart Hosie

Angela Crawley

Mhairi Black

Douglas Chapman

Peter Grant

Fucking shocking

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

you and you likes will be remembered for pulling the SNP down, so arrogant and obnoxious and full of self importance. Slowly but surley, everything i have warned about is now happening, not that it was hard to see coming, lets see you defend sturgeons SNP when we become a fringe party again

That's a complete lie, stop trying to gaslight people.   You're the biggest shit stirrer on here.