Starting 11 v Ukraine

[mccaughey85]

6 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

As I said in my previous post I’m not really interested in back and forth posts about Clarke and the squad. I have my opinion, you have yours. I’ve been commenting on Clarke’s reign and I’ve tried to be considered and balanced. I believe that the performance against Ukraine was a result of the culmination of Clarke’s shortcomings, which I’ve tried to highlight during his time as manager. I don’t believe anything I’ve said has been inflammatory or controversial for the sake of it, just my honest opinion. I don’t believe my reaction to Wednesday can be classed as “knee jerk” in anyway. 

Yeh thats fair enough, everyones entitled to their opinion. 

For me clarke has to remain for the upcoming euro campaign. hes put in lots of excellent groundwork and i believe he will take us to the euros. He achieves that then he will probably leave on a good note and a fair few managers of similar standard to him will want to take the job. Maybe even someone slightly better. Moyes would be ideal but his stock will still be quite high in a couple years time. 

 

[thesaint]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It's the classic hero to zero attitude. Seen it so many times before with Scotland.

Gary McAllister missed that penalty V England and he was then roundly booed thereafter and quit international football shortly after.

Andy Robertson getting it tight. He has gone from being best left-back in the world to piss-head who should be stripped of captaincy 

Steve Clarke has gone from getting us to our first major tournament in a generation and a World Cup play-off to clueless and should be sacked and replaced by unnamed replacement.

It all stems from pissed off supporters triggered into responses over one game and one random shite performance. People need to take a deep breath and think before reacting. Nobody is denying how shite we were but it happens to better teams than us. Look at Italy missing out on World Cup after winning Euros. Look at England being eliminated by Iceland. And there are other instances.

That's the problem. It isn't just a one off. The two home euro games were absolutely pitiful performances, especially for a team who should have been buzzing having qualified for their first tournament in 20 odd years. He said after the euros he would learn and move on. Well, he moved on but learned f. ck all. Now we get a real chance to make a world cup and f. ck me does he not set us up negativiely again for a must win game. We should be taking the game to the opposition at hampden, not sitting back allowing them to play. What was the worst that could have happened? We could have lost.. DUH. The way he set us up he never gave us a chance to win. Just wait and see how Wales approach this match. Bet you it won't be sitting watching a f. cking Ukraine love in. Total fuckwit stupidity. 

 

[ParisInAKilt]

A grim performance. Thankfully I could go to my bed half cut after the second goal went in. 

Can’t say I’m surprised anymore, we’ve always got a performance like that in us but very disappointing after the Denmark game. 

Too many players didn’t show up and the tactics didn’t help. 

[Diamond Scot]

Struggle to understand some posters thought process on here at times. 

People saying Clarke is stubborn and doesnt change / is too late to change things. He took Dykes off and changed the formation at half time. The vast majority of managers dont change anything until at least 60 mins.

I thought Clarke got it wrong on Wed by going 2 up top. It doesnt play to our strengths and caused knock on problems all over the pitch. Hopefully that puts the outdated 2 up top is more attacking debate to bed for good.

In defence of Clarke I personally think Scoltand have played some of our best football in my lifetime under Clarke. We have moved the ball about and scored some cracking team goals. Id much rather continue with this and have the occasional setback than return to being ultra defensive and trying to nick a goal.

Clarke has also shown that he will play youth or players in form. Gilmour, Patterson and Hickey would all have waited about 2 or 3 more years under previous managers. Hickey wasnt great on Wed (not helped by the formation) but he will grow from it.

[thesaint]

19 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Struggle to understand some posters thought process on here at times. 

People saying Clarke is stubborn and doesnt change / is too late to change things. He took Dykes off and changed the formation at half time. The vast majority of managers dont change anything until at least 60 mins.

I thought Clarke got it wrong on Wed by going 2 up top. It doesnt play to our strengths and caused knock on problems all over the pitch. Hopefully that puts the outdated 2 up top is more attacking debate to bed for good.

In defence of Clarke I personally think Scoltand have played some of our best football in my lifetime under Clarke. We have moved the ball about and scored some cracking team goals. Id much rather continue with this and have the occasional setback than return to being ultra defensive and trying to nick a goal.

Clarke has also shown that he will play youth or players in form. Gilmour, Patterson and Hickey would all have waited about 2 or 3 more years under previous managers. Hickey wasnt great on Wed (not helped by the formation) but he will grow from it.

What do you mean go back to being ultra defensive?.Did you see the game on Wednesday. Our midfield hardly got into their half with the ball. All we did was launch long balls up to the front two, completely bypassing the midfield. The thing is we showed against Denmark and to a certain degree parts of the Israel game that we can play a quick passing game going forward that would cause plenty of teams real problems. It was excellent and Clarke saw how positive it was, yet we end up with that pathetic passive performance. Why? 

[Diamond Scot]

36 minutes ago, thesaint said:

What do you mean go back to being ultra defensive?.Did you see the game on Wednesday. Our midfield hardly got into their half with the ball. All we did was launch long balls up to the front two, completely bypassing the midfield. The thing is we showed against Denmark and to a certain degree parts of the Israel game that we can play a quick passing game going forward that would cause plenty of teams real problems. It was excellent and Clarke saw how positive it was, yet we end up with that pathetic passive performance. Why? 

Thats what I said, that Clarke got his tactics wrong on Wed by going 2 up top.

By defensive football I meant like how we played under Smith for example. Even under subsequent managers there was always a feeling that we were just trying to nick results.

Clarke has brought in a style whwre we dominate games and play some really attractive football. Although I accept that he has made errors, particuarly in the 1st Euros game and on Wed.

[Caledonian Craig]

7 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Struggle to understand some posters thought process on here at times. 

People saying Clarke is stubborn and doesnt change / is too late to change things. He took Dykes off and changed the formation at half time. The vast majority of managers dont change anything until at least 60 mins.

I thought Clarke got it wrong on Wed by going 2 up top. It doesnt play to our strengths and caused knock on problems all over the pitch. Hopefully that puts the outdated 2 up top is more attacking debate to bed for good.

In defence of Clarke I personally think Scoltand have played some of our best football in my lifetime under Clarke. We have moved the ball about and scored some cracking team goals. Id much rather continue with this and have the occasional setback than return to being ultra defensive and trying to nick a goal.

Clarke has also shown that he will play youth or players in form. Gilmour, Patterson and Hickey would all have waited about 2 or 3 more years under previous managers. Hickey wasnt great on Wed (not helped by the formation) but he will grow from it.

Absolutely spot on. People slating Clarke for messing up big matches such as Ukraine and Czech Republic are choosing to ignore the big must win games such as play-offs V Israel and away to Serbia where we were underdogs for that play-off final. Then the last four or five games in World Cup qualifying seen as must win and we did win.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Caledonian Craig

[ProudScot]

The “Clarke has done well” brigade are correct he largely has.

However, and it’s a big however, he’s made the exact same mistakes for 2 out of our 3 Euros group matches and in the play off the other night - to say he hasn’t is just ignoring the obvious. 

It was clear as day that Souttar, excellent against Denmark & outstanding in the Scottish cup final, should play at the back where McTominay played. That one was very obvious. 

The most obvious one though was the shape of the team which wasn’t set up to play against Ukraines shape at all & that should have been changed 15 mins in. 

The long ball to Dykes, football from a bygone era referenced by Souness etc at the Euros, came back again and it was pitiful to watch.

The players played very poorly, not aided by the poor set up and tactics. 

At home vs Armenia we could set up like that and probably win but realistically why don’t we set up like we should against a good team & get used to playing that way. Just an idea Steve. 

[Mox]

On 6/2/2022 at 8:49 PM, Scot1 said:

I agree, I wasn’t defending him. But I do think that we reverted to playing the long ball because we were pushed back and it was the only “out” ball. 
Id like to think Clarke and his staff will look at the performance of Ukraine as try to emulate how the dominated the game through possession of the ball. That’s what we need to aim at. 

We humped the ball up the park quite literally from kick off, it was a clear instruction.

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, ProudScot said:

The “Clarke has done well” brigade are correct he largely has.

However, and it’s a big however, he’s made the exact same mistakes for 2 out of our 3 Euros group matches and in the play off the other night - to say he hasn’t is just ignoring the obvious. 

It was clear as day that Souttar, excellent against Denmark & outstanding in the Scottish cup final, should play at the back where McTominay played. That one was very obvious. 

The most obvious one though was the shape of the team which wasn’t set up to play against Ukraines shape at all & that should have been changed 15 mins in. 

The long ball to Dykes, football from a bygone era referenced by Souness etc at the Euros, came back again and it was pitiful to watch.

The players played very poorly, not aided by the poor set up and tactics. 

At home vs Armenia we could set up like that and probably win but realistically why don’t we set up like we should against a good team & get used to playing that way. Just an idea Steve. 

Wtf is the Clarke has done well brigade? 🤣🤣

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, ProudScot said:

The “Clarke has done well” brigade are correct he largely has.

However, and it’s a big however, he’s made the exact same mistakes for 2 out of our 3 Euros group matches and in the play off the other night - to say he hasn’t is just ignoring the obvious. 

It was clear as day that Souttar, excellent against Denmark & outstanding in the Scottish cup final, should play at the back where McTominay played. That one was very obvious. 

The most obvious one though was the shape of the team which wasn’t set up to play against Ukraines shape at all & that should have been changed 15 mins in. 

The long ball to Dykes, football from a bygone era referenced by Souness etc at the Euros, came back again and it was pitiful to watch.

The players played very poorly, not aided by the poor set up and tactics. 

At home vs Armenia we could set up like that and probably win but realistically why don’t we set up like we should against a good team & get used to playing that way. Just an idea Steve. 

Surely we should all be in the 'clarke has done well brigade'. 

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by mccaughey85

[mccaughey85]

18 hours ago, thesaint said:

That's the problem. It isn't just a one off. The two home euro games were absolutely pitiful performances, especially for a team who should have been buzzing having qualified for their first tournament in 20 odd years. He said after the euros he would learn and move on. Well, he moved on but learned f. ck all. Now we get a real chance to make a world cup and f. ck me does he not set us up negativiely again for a must win game. We should be taking the game to the opposition at hampden, not sitting back allowing them to play. What was the worst that could have happened? We could have lost.. DUH. The way he set us up he never gave us a chance to win. Just wait and see how Wales approach this match. Bet you it won't be sitting watching a f. cking Ukraine love in. Total fuckwit stupidity. 

 

The czech rep game wasnt a pitiful performance, we created loads of chances and should of came away with a draw at least. We were fucked over by a bad defensive error from both hendry and marshall.

The croatia game was disappointing but croatia are a class side and they pulled out big performance when they needed it. They are a significantly better team than us and it was a tough ask to have to beat them to qualify for the knockout stages.

Overall clarkes done excellent with whats a limited squad. If you said to me when clarke started that he would take us to the euros and to a world cup play off i would of been happy with that and i think most if their honest would say the same. 

The players need to take a fair bit of flak for the ukraine game but overall the squad and management should be pleased with our overall progress. We need to now look forward and try and qualify for the euros. If clarke achieves that then he will walk away a legend.

Do you think clarke will get us to the next euros?

[vanderark14]

3 hours ago, Mox said:

We humped the ball up the park quite literally from kick off, it was a clear instruction.

Are you genuinely saying Clarke instructed the players to play long ball?

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

The czech rep game wasnt a pitiful performance, we created loads of chances and should of came away with a draw at least. We were fucked over by a bad defensive error from both hendry and marshall.

The croatia game was disappointing but croatia are a class side and they pulled out big performance when they needed it. They are a significantly better team than us and it was a tough ask to have to beat them to qualify for the knockout stages.

Overall clarkes done excellent with whats a limited squad. If you said to me when clarke started that he would take us to the euros and to a world cup play off i would of been happy with that and i think most if their honest would say the same. 

The players need to take a fair bit of flak for the ukraine game but overall the squad and management should be pleased with our overall progress. We need to now look forward and try and qualify for the euros. If clarke achieves that then he will walk away a legend.

Do you think clarke will get us to the next euros?

Apropos of nothing, Croatia got humped 3-0 at home by Austria last night.

1 hour ago, vanderark14 said:

Are you genuinely saying Clarke instructed the players to play long ball?

I generally think it's a cop-out to blame the manager and "tactics" - but - why else would the players play long balls when they have decent ball-players like Gilmour and McGregor to pass to in midfield instead? 

Either they were told to play like that by the manager or: 1) they decided themselves to lump it long, like they did in the Euros, in which case they should have been told in no uncertain terms long ago that this is the wrong approach; or 2) they tried to play it through midfield but were unable to effectively because of the way they had been set up. Interestingly we played a lot better when we changed shape in the second half but we were already two goals down by that point.

Either way, I think in this case the management team is at least partly culpable for the performance on Wednesday.

[vanderark14]

19 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Apropos of nothing, Croatia got humped 3-0 at home by Austria last night.

I generally think it's a cop-out to blame the manager and "tactics" - but - why else would the players play long balls when they have decent ball-players like Gilmour and McGregor to pass to in midfield instead? 

Either they were told to play like that by the manager or: 1) they decided themselves to lump it long, like they did in the Euros, in which case they should have been told in no uncertain terms long ago that this is the wrong approach; or 2) they tried to play it through midfield but were unable to effectively because of the way they had been set up. Interestingly we played a lot better when we changed shape in the second half but we were already two goals down by that point.

Either way, I think in this case the management team is at least partly culpable for the performance on Wednesday.

There were two reasons we were punting the ball long, our players didnt turn up, they admitted this themselves and Ukraine overun us in midfield and forced us into long ball. 

There's no way Clarke sent them out to play long ball

[Toepoke]

As has been mentioned, on reflection Ukraine was the absolute worst semi final draw we could've got. Anyone else and it would've been done and dusted in March with a far less jaded squad (plus Tierney and Patterson).

I'm finding some solace in the fact that two of the absolute worst things to experience would be losing a play-off final in Wales, or getting sent home from the World Cup by England.

 

 

[scotlad]

51 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

There were two reasons we were punting the ball long, our players didnt turn up, they admitted this themselves and Ukraine overun us in midfield and forced us into long ball. 

There's no way Clarke sent them out to play long ball

Okay, so he could have tweaked the formation so we weren't outnumbered in midfield. He did eventually, but by that point the damage had been done.

I'm not denying the players were the main culprits (and the game was played in highly unusual and difficult circumstances, to be fair) but on this occasion I feel the management team were at fault too.

22 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

As has been mentioned, on reflection Ukraine was the absolute worst semi final draw we could've got. Anyone else and it would've been done and dusted in March with a far less jaded squad (plus Tierney and Patterson).

I'm finding some solace in the fact that two of the absolute worst things to experience would be losing a play-off final in Wales, or getting sent home from the World Cup by England.

 

 

This is a bit of the "if your auntie had baws..." school of thought, but since the game I have wondered how we might have fared had it been played in normal circumstances, i.e. in March when the players were less tired and Ukraine hadn't been invaded by Russia (I'm sure we'd all rather that hadn't happened).

I really didn't rate Ukraine all that highly and I was fairly happy when we drew them. Still, I would rather we had lost to them than Wales. And getting put out of the tournament by England?? Jeezo, their smugness would be thermonuclear! 😂

 

[thesaint]

5 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

The czech rep game wasnt a pitiful performance, we created loads of chances and should of came away with a draw at least. We were fucked over by a bad defensive error from both hendry and marshall.

The croatia game was disappointing but croatia are a class side and they pulled out big performance when they needed it. They are a significantly better team than us and it was a tough ask to have to beat them to qualify for the knockout stages.

Overall clarkes done excellent with whats a limited squad. If you said to me when clarke started that he would take us to the euros and to a world cup play off i would of been happy with that and i think most if their honest would say the same. 

The players need to take a fair bit of flak for the ukraine game but overall the squad and management should be pleased with our overall progress. We need to now look forward and try and qualify for the euros. If clarke achieves that then he will walk away a legend.

Do you think clarke will get us to the next euros?

Not if we play like that i dont. 

[supersub]

It's all the more frustrating when we turn in a performance like that in such a vital game. Didn't seem to get going until the last 25 mins.  The players should have come out the traps flying and fed off the energy of the crowd.

Was there for the taking but we played like we were an away team with 10 men.

[thesaint]

17 minutes ago, supersub said:

It's all the more frustrating when we turn in a performance like that in such a vital game. Didn't seem to get going until the last 25 mins.  The players should have come out the traps flying and fed off the energy of the crowd.

Was there for the taking but we played like we were an away team with 10 men.

A totally inexpliicable performance on many levels. Just wondering do you think when we play Ukraine again in the nations league that we will still be getting bombarded with all the virtue signaling bollocks. Is this wanting Ukraine to win everything they are involved in to carry on indefinately or what? 

[supersub]

The emotion should have subsided by then but who knows as it's September.  I'm hoping our boys will want to prove a point and have a score to settle next time around

[scotlad]

35 minutes ago, thesaint said:

A totally inexpliicable performance on many levels. Just wondering do you think when we play Ukraine again in the nations league that we will still be getting bombarded with all the virtue signaling bollocks. Is this wanting Ukraine to win everything they are involved in to carry on indefinately or what? 

I don't think we will.  I've just finished watching Armenia v Ireland and the Irish punditry team didn't refer to Ukraine at all in anything other than a sporting context (as far as I can remember anyway).  I doubt the Welsh media will stoking up the emotional blackmail as much as our shower did either.

[Caledonian Craig]

3 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I don't think we will.  I've just finished watching Armenia v Ireland and the Irish punditry team didn't refer to Ukraine at all in anything other than a sporting context (as far as I can remember anyway).  I doubt the Welsh media will stoking up the emotional blackmail as much as our shower did either.

Doubt we'll hear Ian Rush stating he will be supporting Ukraine against Wales either a la Souness.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Caledonian Craig

[scotlad]

6 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Doubt we'll hear Ian Rush stating he will be supporting Ukraine against Wales either a la Souness.

Very good point! 👍

[Malcolm]

7 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Doubt we'll hear Ian Rush stating he will be supporting Ukraine against Wales either a la Souness.

never mind Ian rush, I won’t be supporting Ukraine against Wales.