Starting 11 v Ukraine

[scotlad]

10 hours ago, COLT NY said:

It's a stupid rule anyway, so I'm glad he didn't get booked. 

Bottom line today was that our key players didn't perform (Robertson & McGinn at the front of that queue). Seemed to me that all the time the Ukranians had in camp together made a difference. Or maybe our boys looked at their shirts and thought they were playing Brazil?

Hard for me to criticise Clarke as I'd have maybe chosen the same starting 11. He should change things faster if its not working though, and McTominey should have switched to midfield as soon as it was clear the back 5 was working (so, after about 8 or 9 minutes!). He's also got us to a place where we're at least competitive again. I feel a lot better about our chances of qualifying for the next two tournaments than I did when we were losing 3-0 in Kazakhstan or 4-0 in Russia.

 

How much of a jobsworth cunt would you feel if you ended up sending someone in his position off for celebrating a goal? 🤣

I agree with all of that. Our better players didn't show up. Robertson was virtually marked out of the game (don't blame them for that) and we couldn't get a foothold in midfield - which was odd, considering we played three men in there; how did that happen??.

We have improved from three years ago though - the fact we were even in a playoff for the World Cup finals is testament to that. The team is still fairly young and there are others coming through. Things could be worse.

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

I didnt really give it enough thought prior to the game but playing a war torn country must have been a nightmare game to play in. Even I felt weird watching it. 

I don't think it's a good enough excuse for the lack of effort but I'm beginning to see what souness meant by not envying the players paying against Ukraine last night. He still wrong to want them to win but he has a point about how difficult it would have been. The whole occasion was just bizarre 

The pundits mentioned a few times that we looked "leggy". There's no reason why they should, but I think the occasion and who they were playing got to them.

Another poster mentioned it earlier in the thread, we looked like we were playing in a friendly - and for about an hour we did.

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, adamntg said:

I don’t.  I really hope they beat Wales, good luck to them. 

Same. I'm still hurting after last night but I'd much rather they get to the finals than Wales and that cheating, graceless, chimp-faced arsehole Bale, and that other utter roaster Robbie Savage.

[Malcolm]

17 minutes ago, scotlad said:

How much of a jobsworth cunt would you feel if you ended up sending someone in his position off for celebrating a goal? 🤣

I agree with all of that. Our better players didn't show up. Robertson was virtually marked out of the game (don't blame them for that) and we couldn't get a foothold in midfield - which was odd, considering we played three men in there; how did that happen??.

We have improved from three years ago though - the fact we were even in a playoff for the World Cup finals is testament to that. The team is still fairly young and there are others coming through. Things could be worse.

have we improved from 15 years ago?  We reversed that scoreline and beat Ukraine 3-1 in 2007.

[slasher]

There can’t be too many countries who would tie themselves in a physical and mental knot the way we did last night. On and off the pitch it was all very flat and very poor. It makes me wonder a bit about where we are going as a football side and a nation in general. 
It’s probably a bit of ‘the morning after’ but yesterday was fuckin shite and meeting up with old friends again doesn’t take any of the edge off it for me at all.

[thesaint]

4 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Same. I'm still hurting after last night but I'd much rather they get to the finals than Wales and that cheating, graceless, chimp-faced arsehole Bale, and that other utter roaster Robbie Savage.

No great lover of Wales, but i think they will win. One thing Wales wont do is sit off them and let them play. They will be right in their faces and will take the game to them. Something that we totally failed to do. 

[Caledonian Craig]

6 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

have we improved from 15 years ago?  We reversed that scoreline and beat Ukraine 3-1 in 2007.

Of course we have as have Ukraine markedly. We put in a performance that day but we didn't last night. Simples.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Caledonian Craig

[Orraloon]

8 minutes ago, scotlad said:

How much of a jobsworth cunt would you feel if you ended up sending someone in his position off for celebrating a goal? 🤣

I agree with all of that. Our better players didn't show up. Robertson was virtually marked out of the game (don't blame them for that) and we couldn't get a foothold in midfield - which was odd, considering we played three men in there; how did that happen??.

We have improved from three years ago though - the fact we were even in a playoff for the World Cup finals is testament to that. The team is still fairly young and there are others coming through. Things could be worse.

It happened because we didn't have three men in midfield. McGinn was playing too far forward for that formation. I don't know if that was his fault or if he was told to do that? Early on Gilmour was surrounded by Ukrainians and had very few options of who to pass to. That resulted in him giving away possession. That then led to our defenders refusing to give him the ball and we started the usual pish of pass, pass, pass across the defence until they put enough pressure on us to force the pass back to Gordon to punt it up the park. We then spend a few minutes frantically trying win the ball back again just to repeat the same nonsense again. If we are going to play Gilmour we have to give him the ball at every sensible opportunity. There is no point having Gilmour on the park if we are not going to give him the ball. We were overrun in midfield by a group of players with better technical ability than us and Clarke refused to do anything about it, until it was too late. And it's not the first time this has happened.   

[Orraloon]

4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Of course we have as have Ukraine markedly. We put in a performance that day but wqe didn't last night. Simples.

That Ukraine team had been in the QF of the World Cup the year before. Whilst the current Ukraine team are far better than us I'm fairly confident they won't get to the QF this time round. 

[Guest Scot1]

Get the midfield right and most of the issues disappear, sort themselves out. At the very minimum we should be playing with 3 central midfielders. 
Switch to a back 4, we can put 4 in midfield and that doesn’t include our 2nd striker who will drop deep at times with and without possession. 
In my opinion we are in real need for a defensive midfielder, which is why I’ve suggested before trying Tierney in that role (4/1/3/1/1 a slight variation on 4/4/2), and to a lesser extent Allan Campbell. Against Armenia we should be going to a back 4, regardless of yesterdays result/performance. 
so I’d go with

               Gordon

Patterson.Hendry McKenna Robbo

                Campbell

  McTominay Gilmour McGregor 

          McGinn    
                          Stewart/Dykes

If all are fit and available 

In a back 3/5 our midfield should be 

  McTominay Gilmour McGregor 

again with McGinn playing off the striker, and at times he will also drop deep into the midfield. 
Now what this means is we are going to have to retain possession and play our way through the opposition. If it takes 30 passes, it takes 30 passes. We are, and should be looking at dominating possession, with the emergence of Gilmour, we have the ability to do so. Dominate possession in midfield, push the opposition back into their own half and play as much of the game there as possible. 

[Caledonian Craig]

45 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

352 is brilliant when you have Tierney and Patterson on the park. Watching Patterson link with the midfield or Tierney and Robertson tearing down the left was a joy to watch. When you take those two players out we look less threatening. 

 

Spot on.

[scotlad]

1 minute ago, Malcolm said:

have we improved from 15 years ago?  We reversed that scoreline and beat Ukraine 3-1 in 2007.

True, but we finished third in that qualifying group (after losing to Georgia in the following game) and went on to finish third in the next campaign (as second seeds too), and the next one, then fourth...

We were third seeds in our group but finished second; we lost only one qualification game for the first time since the 1998 campaign and, I think, finished the best of the runners-up (under some formats that would have been good enough to see us qualify automatically), albeit not from the toughest of groups.

Levein and Strachan's squads were made up of English Championship and squad players for EPL yo-yo teams; we now have guys who are key players for their teams and a few who play for blue chip sides too. Only three of our starting XI last night played their club football last season outside one of the big 5 European leagues.

We still have deficiencies in defence and attack but the quality and quantity of players we are producing is improving.

Right, where's my tambourine... 😍👏🤣

[Caledonian Craig]

11 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

That Ukraine team had been in the QF of the World Cup the year before. Whilst the current Ukraine team are far better than us I'm fairly confident they won't get to the QF this time round. 

And this Ukraine side were in the Euro QF's last year. And you are ignoring a fact everyone here agrees with that we just did not perform last night. In 2007 they put in a great performance but still failed in the long run.

[Guest Scot1]

Yes we have some areas where we aren’t particularly strong. But the major deficiency, in my opinion, is Clarke and his staff, and the rest of the great minds involved in Scottish football who couldn’t see this coming. No one in the media said anything about the mistakes Clarke constantly makes or the shortcomings of his formations and personnel choices. Not 1 person. 

[scotlad]

20 minutes ago, thesaint said:

No great lover of Wales, but i think they will win. One thing Wales wont do is sit off them and let them play. They will be right in their faces and will take the game to them. Something that we totally failed to do. 

I actually don't have any strong feelings either way regarding Wales - save for the two individuals I mentioned.

I wouldn't be surprised if they won either. They will have watched our game and learned from our mistakes; they will have seen the Ukraine goalie is vulnerable and will target him as a weak link; they probably won't get the full psychological brunt of the "the whole world wants Ukraine to win" propaganda either.

[mccaughey85]

17 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

Yes we have some areas where we aren’t particularly strong. But the major deficiency, in my opinion, is Clarke and his staff, and the rest of the great minds involved in Scottish football who couldn’t see this coming. No one in the media said anything about the mistakes Clarke constantly makes or the shortcomings of his formations and personnel choices. Not 1 person. 

Clarke was a hero before this game. How can he go from hero to zero after one defeat to a fairly decent team. The progress we have had under clarke has been excellent. The very fact we made the play offs is progress. If you also consider he has taken us to a major tournament then so far hes done a pretty good job.

Would you get rid of clarke and if so who do you think would be a better option(realistic).

[mccaughey85]

51 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

have we improved from 15 years ago?  We reversed that scoreline and beat Ukraine 3-1 in 2007.

I would say this team are a similar level to the 2007/8 team. Only problem back then was we had two managers who were willing to jump at first chance of a decent club offer. I dont think clarke will do that. He will probably take us to the euros and then leave us in a reasonable state for the next guy coming in.

Clarke has certainly improved us from where we were 4/5 years ago or even longer.

[TDYER63]

23 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I actually don't have any strong feelings either way regarding Wales - save for the two individuals I mentioned.

I wouldn't be surprised if they won either. They will have watched our game and learned from our mistakes; they will have seen the Ukraine goalie is vulnerable and will target him as a weak link; they probably won't get the full psychological brunt of the "the whole world wants Ukraine to win" propaganda either.

Agree with this. We will have taken most of the psychological heat and Wales will want to win after their defeat last night. I am not too fussed who wins but think I would prefer Ukraine for obvious reasons. If we cant be there I would prefer Ukraine to have the chance. Plus if they beat Wales it might make me feel we  arent as utterly shite as we looked 🙄

[Guest Scot1]

9 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Clarke was a hero before this game. How can he go from hero to zero after one defeat to a fairly decent team. The progress we have had under clarke has been excellent. The very fact we made the play offs is progress. If you also consider he has taken us to a major tournament then so far hes done a pretty good job.

Would you get rid of clarke and if so who do you think would be a better option(realistic).

The progress we have made, in my opinion is mostly due to the improvement in the class of player available in the squad. In my opinion this is the best group of players we’ve had in a long time. 
As far as replacement goes, I’m not sure, I don’t know a lot of managers except those in Scotland and a few down South. 

[thplinth]

If we had gone down swinging last night I don't think anyone could complain about the campaign at all. Ukraine are in the play-offs for a reason same as us. Getting passed both them and Wales was always a tall order. 

It is just the manner of the defeat. Very disappointing after the efforts wining 6 games back to back to get us there.

But really who could have foreseen the unique circumstances of the game when it was finally played. I know Ukraine got invaded but I feel we were incredibly unlucky yet again as had we played that game under normal circumstances I think we would have performed much better, we were on a roll and this just let the tyres down on it. Still at least we are not getting shelled and shit.

[Guest Scot1]

Just now, thplinth said:

If we had gone down swinging last night I don't think anyone could complain about the campaign at all. Ukraine are in the play-offs for a reason same as us. Getting passed both them and Wales was always a tall order. 

It is just the manner of the defeat. Very disappointing after the efforts wining 6 games back to back to get us there.

But really who could have foreseen the unique circumstances of the game when it was finally played. I know Ukraine got invaded but I feel we were incredibly unlucky yet again as had we played that game under normal circumstances I think we would have performed much better, we were on a roll and this just let the tyres down on it. Still at least we are not getting shelled and shit.

I think the Austria friendly was a big warning to those observant enough to notice. And there were plenty of red flags before that.

[Caledonian Craig]

4 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Agree with this. We will have taken most of the psychological heat and Wales will want to win after their defeat last night. I am not too fussed who wins but think I would prefer Ukraine for obvious reasons. If we cant be there I would prefer Ukraine to have the chance. Plus if they beat Wales it might make me feel we  arent as utterly shite as we looked 🙄

Definitely where Wales will benefit is the secret is out. Ukraine have been together for a month preparing solely for these games. They are better prepared than ever before. Forget the crap that their preparation as a squad has been hit - nonsense. Heck teams that qualify for the World Cup don't even have longer than that together preparing.

[thplinth]

7 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

I think the Austria friendly was a big warning to those observant enough to notice. And there were plenty of red flags before that.

I don't think you can really judge anything from friendlies nowadays other than the individual performances of players. We made 6 substitutions in that game and so did Austria. So how can you read anything into that, its a dogs dinner. (This is why I don't watch friendlies, Both sides changing out more than half their team during the game. Whatever the result it is meaningless IMHO.)

[Guest Scot1]

7 minutes ago, thplinth said:

I don't think you can really judge anything from friendlies nowadays other than the individual performances of players. We made 6 substitutions in that game and so did Austria. So how can you read anything into that, its a dogs dinner. (This is why I don't watch friendlies, Both sides changing out more than half their team during the game. Whatever the result it is meaningless IMHO.)

Played 2 central midfielders and we got overrun and struggled to get out.

[daviebee]

21 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

Played 2 central midfielders and we got overrun and struggled to get out.

Conceded a hell of a lot of chances as well.  Can't rely on the goalie bailing you out every time.