Season 21/22

[aaid]

8 minutes ago, slasher said:

All people are looking for is a bit of transparency yet people like you seem to be kicking and screaming against it for no real good reason I can see. 

The big flaw in your simplistic argument is that 50% of refereeing comes down to interpretation. It's frankly ridiculous to suggest that a referee couldn't be influenced perhaps even unintentionally by where their sympathies lie. You're also completely dismissing human nature which is again frankly ridiculous. 

I’m not.  By the time referees get to officiate at the top level they’ll have years of experience and training.  Saying 50% of decisions are down to interpretation misses the point that Refs don’t just make it up as they go along, they work off guidelines and advice of what the appropriate response is in any particular scenario.

I don’t think it’s a problem that needs solving.  
 

I’d also say be careful what you wish for.  If as a Celtic fan you’re asking for around two thirds of the available referees to be unavailable to referee your games then by law of averages, you’re more likely to end up with more games refereed by really shite refs. 

[slasher]

2 minutes ago, aaid said:

I’m not.  By the time referees get to officiate at the top level they’ll have years of experience and training.  Saying 50% of decisions are down to interpretation misses the point that Refs don’t just make it up as they go along, they work off guidelines and advice of what the appropriate response is in any particular scenario.

I don’t think it’s a problem that needs solving.  
 

I’d also say be careful what you wish for.  If as a Celtic fan you’re asking for around two thirds of the available referees to be unavailable to referee your games then by law of averages, you’re more likely to end up with more games refereed by really shite refs. 

No one's asking for that. All people are saying is that a Rangers fan shouldn't be reffing Rangers games. It shouldn't proclude them from doing any other games. The only people saying that are those against because it suits their narrative. 

[aaid]

28 minutes ago, slasher said:

No one's asking for that. All people are saying is that a Rangers fan shouldn't be reffing Rangers games. It shouldn't proclude them from doing any other games. The only people saying that are those against because it suits their narrative. 

Most of the comments I see about referee’s being biased are from Celtic fans complaining the refs are biased against them because they’re “Rangers fans”.

 

[vanderark14]

1 minute ago, aaid said:

Most of the comments I see about referee’s being biased are from Celtic fans complaining the refs are biased against them because they’re “Rangers fans”.

 

That's not what's happening in this thread at all. 

[Redz]

39 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

That's not what's happening in this thread at all. 

Correct

[slasher]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

I’m not.  By the time referees get to officiate at the top level they’ll have years of experience and training.  Saying 50% of decisions are down to interpretation misses the point that Refs don’t just make it up as they go along, they work off guidelines and advice of what the appropriate response is in any particular scenario.

I don’t think it’s a problem that needs solving.  
 

I’d also say be careful what you wish for.  If as a Celtic fan you’re asking for around two thirds of the available referees to be unavailable to referee your games then by law of averages, you’re more likely to end up with more games refereed by really shite refs. 

You do realise as well that you're basically saying that Scotland can't replicate the fairer system in England because 'it's just too difficult.' 🤣

You sure you're not a closet Yoon? An MI5 plant perhaps 😉

[Diamond Scot]

3 hours ago, slasher said:

No one's asking for that. All people are saying is that a Rangers fan shouldn't be reffing Rangers games. It shouldn't proclude them from doing any other games. The only people saying that are those against because it suits their narrative. 

This doesnt work in practice though. Rangers refs wouldnt ref Rangers games but would ref Celtic games. If they are open to bias then it follows that they would be biased against Celtic. A) because they are Rangers oldest and fiercest rivals and Celtic results ditectly impact on Rangers success. 

If I was a ref id be equally biased for Scotland and against England. England would get hee haw.

It works in England because they dont have 2 big clubs winning everything and being the only trams contesting the title each year.

I also repeat. How do you know what team a ref supports. In England they provide the info because they know it would stop them doing big games. In Scotland you would end up with Partick, Queens Park, Clyde fans etc with non stop accusations of closet Rangers / fan ref.

[Redz]

7 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

This doesnt work in practice though. Rangers refs wouldnt ref Rangers games but would ref Celtic games. If they are open to bias then it follows that they would be biased against Celtic. A) because they are Rangers oldest and fiercest rivals and Celtic results ditectly impact on Rangers success. 

If I was a ref id be equally biased for Scotland and against England. England would get hee haw.

It works in England because they dont have 2 big clubs winning everything and being the only trams contesting the title each year.

I also repeat. How do you know what team a ref supports. In England they provide the info because they know it would stop them doing big games. In Scotland you would end up with Partick, Queens Park, Clyde fans etc with non stop accusations of closet Rangers / fan ref.

Your opinion is valid, however it continuously reads of 'lets not bother to at least try and make our model more transparent, fair and consistent'

Whilst what a few (myself included) are discussing / suggesting may not perhaps be perfect, it would be a start, and has to be better than having known fans of said club(s) in charge of their games

There are benefitting factors for teams that are out with the SPFL's control - This isn't one of them though

 

 

[kumnio]

Jack Ross punted, he can’t have any complaints about it IMO. 

[Redz]

Glass hadn't won in 10 - 8L & 2D

Knee Jerk from Hibs?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Redz

[dan cake]

8 minutes ago, Redz said:

Glass hadn't won in 10 - 8L & 2D

Knee Jerk from Hibs?

No, 100’s of season ticket holders not attending the games says all you need to know. 

[Diamond Scot]

2 hours ago, Redz said:

Your opinion is valid, however it continuously reads of 'lets not bother to at least try and make our model more transparent, fair and consistent'

Whilst what a few (myself included) are discussing / suggesting may not perhaps be perfect, it would be a start, and has to be better than having known fans of said club(s) in charge of their games

There are benefitting factors for teams that are out with the SPFL's control - This isn't one of them though

 

 

I just dont think it would make things better because I dont think many people would disclose Rangers or Celtic as their teams.

I think we would stand to gain much more from a proper Ref review and performance setup. Moving to full time profrssional refs would be a start. Maybe bring in a well respected retired Ref from England to run it. Somebody without any baggage who wouldnt be afraid to call bad decisions for what they are. 

If any ref consistently makes bad decisions in favour of one team or against one team then they dont get assisgned games involving that team and probably run the risk of moving down the leagues and not earning as much.

[vanderark14]

2 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I just dont think it would make things better because I dont think many people would disclose Rangers or Celtic as their teams.

I think we would stand to gain much more from a proper Ref review and performance setup. Moving to full time profrssional refs would be a start. Maybe bring in a well respected retired Ref from England to run it. Somebody without any baggage who wouldnt be afraid to call bad decisions for what they are. 

If any ref consistently makes bad decisions in favour of one team or against one team then they dont get assisgned games involving that team and probably run the risk of moving down the leagues and not earning as much.

It would be difficult to hid who you support, especially as the younger generation come through to become referees, their lives are lived through social media.

[vanderark14]

4 minutes ago, dan cake said:

No, 100’s of season ticket holders not attending the games says all you need to know. 

I thought the cup final would save his job. 

[dandydunn]

SOS Derek Mcinnes 😆

[kumnio]

Lennon to return and beat Celtic in the final…

[Redz]

17 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I just dont think it would make things better because I dont think many people would disclose Rangers or Celtic as their teams.

I think we would stand to gain much more from a proper Ref review and performance setup. Moving to full time profrssional refs would be a start. Maybe bring in a well respected retired Ref from England to run it. Somebody without any baggage who wouldnt be afraid to call bad decisions for what they are. 

If any ref consistently makes bad decisions in favour of one team or against one team then they dont get assisgned games involving that team and probably run the risk of moving down the leagues and not earning as much.

I personally think that's fanciful

There's a difference between being unable to fix something, as apposed to being unwilling / no appetite

The latter is telling of who runs our game

14 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

It would be difficult to hid who you support, especially as the younger generation come through to become referees, their lives are lived through social media.

Yep

[Redz]

21 minutes ago, dan cake said:

No, 100’s of season ticket holders not attending the games says all you need to know. 

Same happened / continues to happen to a lesser degree at AB24 - 2 more points in 10 games than Glass too

I suppose Hibs haven't considered his efforts transitional now though ?

[Diamond Scot]

3 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

It would be difficult to hid who you support, especially as the younger generation come through to become referees, their lives are lived through social media.

So heres the scenario. When a ref starts out he fills the form in to say he supports Clyde. Spends 10 years working his way up the system, excelling at every level, gets to the too flight and what? He then gets banned from refereeing a Rangers game because a photo emerges of him in a Rangers top aged 12?

What you are suggesting is unworkable. Its not about not wanting to make things better. Its about making changes that would actually work. Most refs have an interest in football but by the nature of their job, ie being a ref, they wont actively go to games etc. 

We need to raise the standard of refereeing by making them more accountable for actual performances. 

[vanderark14]

19 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

So heres the scenario. When a ref starts out he fills the form in to say he supports Clyde. Spends 10 years working his way up the system, excelling at every level, gets to the too flight and what? He then gets banned from refereeing a Rangers game because a photo emerges of him in a Rangers top aged 12?

What you are suggesting is unworkable. Its not about not wanting to make things better. Its about making changes that would actually work. Most refs have an interest in football but by the nature of their job, ie being a ref, they wont actively go to games etc. 

We need to raise the standard of refereeing by making them more accountable for actual performances. 

I think you are underestimating social media, anyone who tries to hide who they support will really struggle. Scottish football is like a small town, keeping a secret like that will be close to impossible. If that referee lies on application then yes you ban him from refereeing because his integrity is obviously in question

Its not unworkable because it happens in England. 

 

[COLT NY]

Hibs have had a bad run, but I think that's an atrocious decision. They were near the bottom of the league when he took over two years ago, and he's made them into a team that regularly compete in cup finals and took third comfortably last season. This season's far from over. A bad run for Hearts and there's no reason Hibs couldn't get third again if they turn things around.

I guess maybe they'll go for McInnes? To be honest though, I don't think they'll find anyone better suited for the role than what they had. I think they've Hibs'd it here.

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, vanderark14 said:

I think you are underestimating social media, anyone who tries to hide who they support will really struggle. Scottish football is like a small town, keeping a secret like that will be close to impossible. If that referee lies on application then yes you ban him from refereeing because his integrity is obviously in question

Its not unworkable because it happens in England. 

 

I have 3 current refs on my FB and you wouldnt be able to work out who they support on there. You could make a guess based on where they come from, in 1 case who their dad supports etc but people arent stupid enough to go posting pictures of things if they know it will have an impact on their job.

It works in England becauae they have more then 2 teams winning everything and more than 1 really big league fixture. In Scotland there are 3 prestegious, high exposure games for a ref. 1 the old firm derbys and the other 2 being the cup finals. If we operate on the basis that an old firm ref not being able to ref either of the old firm then that excludes him from number 1 obviously and probably more than half of the finals.

You say keeping a secret is hard. What are you proposing, tribunials to call witnesses to prove that a ref supports a different team from which he stated on his form? Calling his classmates to give evidence that he used to cheer when Celtic scored 20 years ago? 

Tell me how you think it would work in practice. 

[vanderark14]

41 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I have 3 current refs on my FB and you wouldnt be able to work out who they support on there. You could make a guess based on where they come from, in 1 case who their dad supports etc but people arent stupid enough to go posting pictures of things if they know it will have an impact on their job.

It works in England becauae they have more then 2 teams winning everything and more than 1 really big league fixture. In Scotland there are 3 prestegious, high exposure games for a ref. 1 the old firm derbys and the other 2 being the cup finals. If we operate on the basis that an old firm ref not being able to ref either of the old firm then that excludes him from number 1 obviously and probably more than half of the finals.

You say keeping a secret is hard. What are you proposing, tribunials to call witnesses to prove that a ref supports a different team from which he stated on his form? Calling his classmates to give evidence that he used to cheer when Celtic scored 20 years ago? 

Tell me how you think it would work in practice. 

Now you're just being silly

 

[Diamond Scot]

1 hour ago, vanderark14 said:

Now you're just being silly

 

Proposals need to be thought through. How would they actually work, what would they acheive etc. Its easy to throw out ideas saying they would improve things when they dont need to be held up to any kind of scrutiny. 

Most elite refs start in teens or early 20s and dont reach the top flight for over 10 years. How do you prove that their stated team is accurate? If you cant have a process for that then the entire system is pointless.

[Stu101]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:58 AM, Fairbairn said:

 I will say thought that the only reason I know what team any given ref supports (and funnily enough I only know of the ones that support Rangers) is that I read on here and social media etc when there is a contentious decision and opposing fans go digging.

I've known 2 grade one refs (one current, one former) since primary school. Neither supported either side of old firm, but both have been called out on here as following one or the other on a couple of occations.

Ramy once went on a rant calling a certain ref a 'cheating hun bastard'. That's the same referee who teaches reglious studies at the big Catholic high school down the road, and I've bumped into a number of times in the chapel. Not a great ref, and certainly not a 'hun'.