Serbia Next

[mccaughey85]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

FFS Serbia absolutely did NOT beat Norway comfortably. They won the match with a goal 12 minutes into extra-time and had less possession than Norway. And Serbia currently look set for relegation from their current Nations League group. 

Serbia will be favourites given that they have home advantage certainly not on current form. I'd hope to hell our players are getting fired up about their chances rather than crapping themselves as that shows a distinct lack of confidence and low self-esteem.

So you think its clear Serbia have a stronger squad(sounds like a big margin you are talking there to me). I hope to god our players don't share that mindset or they are a beaten team already.

Just don't get your hopes up too much buddy. It will be alot easier to accept glorious failure when it inevitably comes. 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

This is a point I have been trying to get across. Scotland fans need a reality check. Our first choice goalkeeper plays for Derby County in the second tier. Our first right backs play for sheff wed and motherwell and our star striker plays for QPR in the championship. Its not rocket science to suggest Serbia have a stronger squad than us. How many of the Serbian squad play in second tier leagues. This run of results has been great but let's not get carried away thinking we have a squad of top players playing in top leagues. 

You don't listen do you? So Marshall plays for Derby County - so what? How many goals as he let in for us in the last few games? That is all that matters. Gordon Banks was perhaps the greatest goalkeeper of all-time but never played at the biggest clubs in the land just as Healey is a record goalscorer for Northern Ireland without really playing consistently in even the top flight of league football. Charlie Adam played for Liverpool but was mince for Scotland whilst one of our best players in recent times was McFadden and he never played for the biggest of clubs in his career. All evidence of where a player plays his club football does not shape how they do at international level.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said:

Just don't get your hopes up too much buddy. It will be alot easier to accept glorious failure when it inevitably comes. 

Look win, draw or lose it would seem we are on the way up. Top of our Nations League table and looking good to cement top spot and a team that is on an unbeaten run. I can handle defeat even if I care to think Serbia are by no means unbeatable.

[mccaughey85]

11 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

You don't listen do you? So Marshall plays for Derby County - so what? How many goals as he let in for us in the last few games? That is all that matters. Gordon Banks was perhaps the greatest goalkeeper of all-time but never played at the biggest clubs in the land just as Healey is a record goalscorer for Northern Ireland without really playing consistently in even the top flight of league football. Charlie Adam played for Liverpool but was mince for Scotland whilst one of our best players in recent times was McFadden and he never played for the biggest of clubs in his career. All evidence of where a player plays his club football does not shape how they do at international level.

So why don't we pick players from the Scottish Championship?What club and league a player plays in is a good indicator of how good he is. Obviously theres exceptions where a player playing in a lesser team or league is better than the guy playing for a top team in a top league but when you have a squad(Serbia) of players playing in top leagues v a squad(Scotland) who have a considerable number of players playing in lesser leagues and poor teams then you would have to say that the stronger squad should prevail under good management against the weaker squad. Theres a reason we lose to top nations like Belgium and Germany, because they have stronger squads of top class players. 

Serbia are not massively better than us squad wise but they certainly are a bit stronger and they have a better spread of talent across each position which we don't. 

[Caledonian Craig]

My point is that players playing at the very best/biggest clubs are by no means an assurance they will sparkle at international level just like those that play at unfashionable clubs or below can excel at international football. I have already given you various examples of that being the case. 

You are making generalisations about Serbia having players playing in top leagues. But as I have pointed out these 'top leagues' are below EPL standards in the case of Ligue One (France) and taking into account those playing in Italy and Spain are playing for clubs toiling in those leagues they are no better than say our Sheffield contingent. And those playing for Celtic and Rangers are playing for clubs with better results in European competition than I'd say the majority of those playing for Serbia. They also play cross Europe as the Serbian league is not the strongest either so there are reasons why so many play across Europe but also ask yourself why only two of them play for really big European clubs.

[Caledonian Craig]

An example of what I say comes from looking at the squad Wales have. They have nearly 50% of their squad playing at second tier clubs in England but it never stopped them going deep at Euro 2016.

[mccaughey85]

37 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

My point is that players playing at the very best/biggest clubs are by no means an assurance they will sparkle at international level just like those that play at unfashionable clubs or below can excel at international football. I have already given you various examples of that being the case. 

You are making generalisations about Serbia having players playing in top leagues. But as I have pointed out these 'top leagues' are below EPL standards in the case of Ligue One (France) and taking into account those playing in Italy and Spain are playing for clubs toiling in those leagues they are no better than say our Sheffield contingent. And those playing for Celtic and Rangers are playing for clubs with better results in European competition than I'd say the majority of those playing for Serbia. They also play cross Europe as the Serbian league is not the strongest either so there are reasons why so many play across Europe but also ask yourself why only two of them play for really big European clubs.

Tbh we are just going round in circles, I just aint going to get my hopes up too much as Scotland tend to build up hope then cruelly dash it away in spectacular fashion. Once we are through I will be more optimistic. 

[duncan II]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

You don't listen do you? So Marshall plays for Derby County - so what? How many goals as he let in for us in the last few games? That is all that matters. Gordon Banks was perhaps  they do at international level.

 

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Gordon Banks was perhaps the greatest goalkeeper of all-time

😟😨

[Tartan Chris]

In fairness Mitrovic hasn't looked great for Fulham last season, had a shocker in that Sheffield united game a few weeks back when he missed a penalty, conceded one and also missed a good header chance last minute. However he has ridiculous scoring record at international level so has to be respected.

Jovic made a bad move going to Real Madrid after scoring loads in Bundesliga, barely played.

Tadic out would be big boost as had that mad scoring season for Ajax 18 months back.

Keeping Milinkovic-Savic quiet will be the big task I think. Mad he didn't actually start the Norway game but he came on and made the difference and is excellent box to box midfielder in Serie A. Really surprised he's still at Lazio.

Just seeing all this Craig Gordon talk. I assume that means Marshall won't make it so that's a big blow as if he's fit surely you'd just go with McLaughin as backup but clearly Clarke dosen't want to throw him into such a big game.

[Tartan blood]

10 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I don't mind who a player plays for as long he plays well but it doesn't change the fact that Serbia won't have to rely on players from teams of the calibre of QPR or motherwell. 

Hickeys never played rb at a high level and mctominay is playing out of position at CB, Coopers played a couple of games at epl level. That's hardly a top level backline. 

"We could easily fill up the first 11 with guys from teams with a higher stature." 

I don't think we can, that's why we have to rely on guys from motherwell, sheff wed, aberdeen and motherwell. 

Serbia have strong depth that means they mostly don't need to resort to that level of clubs. 

" We are finally in a moment where we are spoiled for choice in a lot of areas. The fact our best option doesn't play for a high profile team doesn't really matter." 

Are we? We have had the luckiest run of results I have ever seen Scotland have. We got lucky with two soft penalties to draw with Israel and beat a Czech D team. We then scraped past Israel on pens and held on for dear life against the Czechs. Fair enough we looked good OK against Slovakia but we shouldn't be getting overly confident over this run of results. 

We are still well short of top level players in certain positions. Centre back and striker in particular. 

I don't want to sound negative because I think we have a decent squad with some top players plus Clarke has us moving in the right direction but Serbia do have a stronger squad with plenty of guys who play in top leagues. 

A few others have already fought my corner diligently, so I'll try not to repeat what they said. But just a quick note on the outlook. I'm afraid you do sound overly negative. I'm certain that there will be someone on a Serbia forum, exactly like you, dismantling their own squad and comparing theirs to our champions league winner and a myriad of players playing in the best league in the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing, barring 3 or 4, you aren't that familiar with the individual players of Serbia, just the teams they play for. Since that's (probably) the case I think it's unfair to compare the 2 squads. Especiallly since if you start listing our guy's teams: Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, Aston Villa, Celtic et al, we look quite intimidating as well.

Instead, how about comparing the Scotland squads of the past 2 decades. At no point in that time period have we had the squad depth we have now. Not even close. This is by far our best opportunity to qualify in a long time, I just hope Clarke is able to get the best out of the players in a 1 off game.

[Caledonian Craig]

Break down the two sides and I see it like this:-

In the goalkeeping department we have the edge. Regardless of Marshall being at Derby now he has proven himself at top flight level in Scotland and England and in European Champions League level with Celtic as well as with us at international level. Look at Serbia's options and they do not have that.

In the defensive department we have the stand out in both sides in Robertson and if we are going by recent matches Serbia have leaked more goals than us in the last half a dozen matches so would say we have the edge there.

In midfield it is a tough call as in they have the stand-out player but we have good depth so would call this area a tie.

Up front Serbia have the edge I am not going to deny that.

[mccaughey85]

10 hours ago, Tartan blood said:

A few others have already fought my corner diligently, so I'll try not to repeat what they said. But just a quick note on the outlook. I'm afraid you do sound overly negative. I'm certain that there will be someone on a Serbia forum, exactly like you, dismantling their own squad and comparing theirs to our champions league winner and a myriad of players playing in the best league in the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing, barring 3 or 4, you aren't that familiar with the individual players of Serbia, just the teams they play for. Since that's (probably) the case I think it's unfair to compare the 2 squads. Especiallly since if you start listing our guy's teams: Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, Aston Villa, Celtic et al, we look quite intimidating as well.

Instead, how about comparing the Scotland squads of the past 2 decades. At no point in that time period have we had the squad depth we have now. Not even close. This is by far our best opportunity to qualify in a long time, I just hope Clarke is able to get the best out of the players in a 1 off game.

Theres no need for ppl to fight your corner, I wasn't having a go at you or trying to slag our squad massively. I am quite positive about our squad and I think it's better than any squads we have had in years but it's still obvious to me that it could do with some more players in certain positions who play at a higher level. In recent years we have been relying on guys who aren't really strikers(matt Philips,burke) and guys playing Scottish Championship(shankland) to play upfront. We also have a severe lack of right backs and centre backs playing at decent level. 

I reckon Serbian fans will be looking at our squad and be impressed by us having lots of epl players and celtic and rangers players but they will also look at our squad and think positively on the fact we have lots of players playing in the second tier of English football and for relatively unknown clubs like motherwell and hibs. 

Either way I am positive about our chances of success but I also respect the fact that Serbia on paper have a stronger squad with each position covered by quality players. It's going to be a tough job and knowing how Scotland have performed in recent years then I will not get myself excited until I see us through to the euros. 

[Tartan blood]

29 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Theres no need for ppl to fight your corner, I wasn't having a go at you or trying to slag our squad massively. I am quite positive about our squad and I think it's better than any squads we have had in years but it's still obvious to me that it could do with some more players in certain positions who play at a higher level. In recent years we have been relying on guys who aren't really strikers(matt Philips,burke) and guys playing Scottish Championship(shankland) to play upfront. We also have a severe lack of right backs and centre backs playing at decent level. 

I reckon Serbian fans will be looking at our squad and be impressed by us having lots of epl players and celtic and rangers players but they will also look at our squad and think positively on the fact we have lots of players playing in the second tier of English football and for relatively unknown clubs like motherwell and hibs. 

Either way I am positive about our chances of success but I also respect the fact that Serbia on paper have a stronger squad with each position covered by quality players. It's going to be a tough job and knowing how Scotland have performed in recent years then I will not get myself excited until I see us through to the euros. 

Having a pragmatic attitude is probably not a bad idea. It'll certainly guard you from emotional devastation. Especially with our track record. 

If we have very few call offs then I think our first 11s are at least comparable. As much as I enjoyed watching Gallacher and Considine, neither are probably first team players, not long term anyway. 

Fingers crossed the likes of Tadic is out, because that will really even things out on the pitch.

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Break down the two sides and I see it like this:-

In the goalkeeping department we have the edge. Regardless of Marshall being at Derby now he has proven himself at top flight level in Scotland and England and in European Champions League level with Celtic as well as with us at international level. Look at Serbia's options and they do not have that.

In the defensive department we have the stand out in both sides in Robertson and if we are going by recent matches Serbia have leaked more goals than us in the last half a dozen matches so would say we have the edge there.

In midfield it is a tough call as in they have the stand-out player but we have good depth so would call this area a tie.

Up front Serbia have the edge I am not going to deny that.

You need to take the tartan specs of a second and try and see things from a neutral perspective. 

As much as I rate Marshall he has spent most of his career in the second tier of English football. He only played a handful of champions league games if I remember right and he was loaned to Norwich once boruc was brought in to celtic. He is a cracking goalkeeper but he's only had 1 proper season in the epl although I admit it should of been more considering how good a keeper he is. Serbias goalkeeper has played la liga the last three seasons and is only 28. Its very hard to really judge who is the better keeper as I have only seen Marshall but it would be ignorant of us to assume Marshall is necessarily better than their keeper. 

Defensively I would say they beat us, they have centre backs who are regulars for napoli, inter and werder bremen. Granted we have Tierney at arsenal but he's only just started playing centre back. Our other centre backs have played second tier English football or SPL and have basically never played higher than that apart from a couple of epl appearances by Cooper. 

The Serbia right back plays for fiorentina(last three seasons) while our right backs play for sheff wed and motherwell. 

Granted we beat them when it comes to left backs. 

Overall defensively they are stronger and have excellent depth. 

Midfield is where we probably match them but they defo have some cracking players there as well. Guys like tadic and milnkovic-savic are top players. 

Upfront they beat us, mitrovic is better than anything we have and they have a young striker at real Madrid plus another young striker who plays regularly for fiorentina. 

From a neutrals point of view Serbia have a stronger squad. If someone from a random country was to look at each squad and had a little bit of knowledge about them both they would defo pick Serbia as the stronger squad imo. 

[Caledonian Craig]

13 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

You need to take the tartan specs of a second and try and see things from a neutral perspective. 

As much as I rate Marshall he has spent most of his career in the second tier of English football. He only played a handful of champions league games if I remember right and he was loaned to Norwich once boruc was brought in to celtic. He is a cracking goalkeeper but he's only had 1 proper season in the epl although I admit it should of been more considering how good a keeper he is. Serbias goalkeeper has played la liga the last three seasons and is only 28. Its very hard to really judge who is the better keeper as I have only seen Marshall but it would be ignorant of us to assume Marshall is necessarily better than their keeper. 

Defensively I would say they beat us, they have centre backs who are regulars for napoli, inter and werder bremen. Granted we have Tierney at arsenal but he's only just started playing centre back. Our other centre backs have played second tier English football or SPL and have basically never played higher than that apart from a couple of epl appearances by Cooper. 

The Serbia right back plays for fiorentina(last three seasons) while our right backs play for sheff wed and motherwell. 

Granted we beat them when it comes to left backs. 

Overall defensively they are stronger and have excellent depth. 

Midfield is where we probably match them but they defo have some cracking players there as well. Guys like tadic and milnkovic-savic are top players. 

Upfront they beat us, mitrovic is better than anything we have and they have a young striker at real Madrid plus another young striker who plays regularly for fiorentina. 

From a neutrals point of view Serbia have a stronger squad. If someone from a random country was to look at each squad and had a little bit of knowledge about them both they would defo pick Serbia as the stronger squad imo. 

Serbia's goalkeeper also has just as long experience playing in lower leagues and has NOT played Champions League football or hold as much international experience as Marshall.

Hmm defensively they beat us? Last six games they have conceded 9 goals. Last six games Scotland has tweaked defence into a new system and have conceded 3 goals. Werder Bremen are perrenial relegation battlers in the Bundesliga so lets not overplay that. After all we had David Bates playing in the Bundesliga but it did not mean he was a fantastic international quality player. And no your Napoli player has been farmed out on loan to Spartak Moscow so evidently was not getting first team football. So that leaves Kolarov as your real quality. As for your Fiorentina player playing in Serie A fine but they are a mid-table team just like Hickey at Bologna. And we both agree Scotland has edge at left-back.

Midfield we have better strength across the midfield and strength in depth where they may have the odd better stand-out players. And up front we agree they have the edge but again lets look at last six games where they have scored 9 goals and in our last six games we have scored 8 goals so we aren't out of the running there.

[PASTA Mick]

[romanticscot]

1 minute ago, PASTA Mick said:

I'm very happy with the squad, Leigh back, more defenders that even though McTominay was ok in the last games I would prefer him in midfield and glad to see Armstrong there. 

[PASTA Mick]

2 minutes ago, romanticscot said:

I'm very happy with the squad, Leigh back, more defenders that even though McTominay was ok in the last games I would prefer him in midfield and glad to see Armstrong there. 

Only James Forrest missing so far from what would be our strongest squad available. Maybe Gilmour too.  

[mccaughey85]

47 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Serbia's goalkeeper also has just as long experience playing in lower leagues and has NOT played Champions League football or hold as much international experience as Marshall.

Hmm defensively they beat us? Last six games they have conceded 9 goals. Last six games Scotland has tweaked defence into a new system and have conceded 3 goals. Werder Bremen are perrenial relegation battlers in the Bundesliga so lets not overplay that. After all we had David Bates playing in the Bundesliga but it did not mean he was a fantastic international quality player. And no your Napoli player has been farmed out on loan to Spartak Moscow so evidently was not getting first team football. So that leaves Kolarov as your real quality. As for your Fiorentina player playing in Serie A fine but they are a mid-table team just like Hickey at Bologna. And we both agree Scotland has edge at left-back.

Midfield we have better strength across the midfield and strength in depth where they may have the odd better stand-out players. And up front we agree they have the edge but again lets look at last six games where they have scored 9 goals and in our last six games we have scored 8 goals so we aren't out of the running there.

Their goalkeeper is only 28, playing lower league football is acceptable when you are starting a pro career. The test for him is if he stays in la liga or another top league for the rest of his career. Marshall has spent most of his career in the second tier including his prime years. 

Your performing mental gymnastics in order to justify us defensively being better than them. I haven't mentioned form, I have only been talking about the level of player they have compared to us. I am pretty sure David bates didn't play bundesliga, he played in the second tier. The guy who was farmed out to spartak Moscow still has several seasons of playing for napoli plus the guy who plays for werder bremen has several years of bundesliga experience. Add in kolarov who has over 90 caps and plays for a top European side. Try comparing that to our centre backs who have never played above spl or English championship barring Tierney who has just started playing centre back recently. 

Then your trying to compare Hickey, a guy who's never really played right back consistently, who has also less than a handful of serie a appearances to a guy who has been playing for a mid table serie a team for several years. Plus Hickey isn't even in our squad. If he was that good at right back he would be in the senior squad.

Midfield and wingers is quite even, I reckon we might just edge them but theres not much in it tbh. 

Strikers we both agree on. 

I am not really talking about form or results. I am just taking into consideration the players they have on paper. On paper the Serbian side is better and has back up options that are slightly better than us. 

 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Their goalkeeper is only 28, playing lower league football is acceptable when you are starting a pro career. The test for him is if he stays in la liga or another top league for the rest of his career. Marshall has spent most of his career in the second tier including his prime years. 

Your performing mental gymnastics in order to justify us defensively being better than them. I haven't mentioned form, I have only been talking about the level of player they have compared to us. I am pretty sure David bates didn't play bundesliga, he played in the second tier. The guy who was farmed out to spartak Moscow still has several seasons of playing for napoli plus the guy who plays for werder bremen has several years of bundesliga experience. Add in kolarov who has over 90 caps and plays for a top European side. Try comparing that to our centre backs who have never played above spl or English championship barring Tierney who has just started playing centre back recently. 

Then your trying to compare Hickey, a guy who's never really played right back consistently, who has also less than a handful of serie a appearances to a guy who has been playing for a mid table serie a team for several years. Plus Hickey isn't even in our squad. If he was that good at right back he would be in the senior squad.

Midfield and wingers is quite even, I reckon we might just edge them but theres not much in it tbh. 

Strikers we both agree on. 

I am not really talking about form or results. I am just taking into consideration the players they have on paper. On paper the Serbian side is better and has back up options that are slightly better than us. 

 

Form matters more than what club a player plays for and what standing that club has. I am baffled you can't seem to accept that as I have given you plenty of examples of that fact.

I am not denying they aren't a decent side but so are we and whereas we are on the way up I suggest they are on the way down. Remember that they, like us, are at this stage as they, like us, failed to qualify through their group so on that front too they are on an equal standing. 

[Caledonian Craig]

48 minutes ago, PASTA Mick said:

Only James Forrest missing so far from what would be our strongest squad available. Maybe Gilmour too.  

And Fleck I'd say.

[vanderark14]

3 hours ago, PASTA Mick said:

Only James Forrest missing so far from what would be our strongest squad available. Maybe Gilmour too.  

Forrest is yesterdays news. Gilmour i agree on

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And Fleck I'd say.

I havent seen much of fleck in a scotland jersey which makes me think we will miss him

[mccaughey85]

4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Form matters more than what club a player plays for and what standing that club has. I am baffled you can't seem to accept that as I have given you plenty of examples of that fact.

I am not denying they aren't a decent side but so are we and whereas we are on the way up I suggest they are on the way down. Remember that they, like us, are at this stage as they, like us, failed to qualify through their group so on that front too they are on an equal standing. 

We are discussing the strength of players Serbia have compared to us. I haven't mentioned form but you keep rambling on about it like some kind of crackpot. 

Form is defo in our favour although Serbia did pull out a big performance against a side who would be favourites against us. 

 

[ceudmilefailte]

For those of us that like a wee bet we are 5/1 to win in 90 minutes or 11/4 to qualify if you fancy extra time and penalties.

[mccaughey85]

2 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

For those of us that like a wee bet we are 5/1 to win in 90 minutes or 11/4 to qualify if you fancy extra time and penalties.

Might go for Donald trump Scotland double.