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exile

Black Lives Matter... in Scotland

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33 minutes ago, phart said:

Trying to excuse proof a name for folk holding irrational views might prove impossible though. Have you an example of what could have been used?

 

 

Personally i think they should have gone with 'Black Lives Matter And So Do All Lives So Calm The Fuck Doon Ye Racist Bawbags'

Or BLMASDALSCTFDYRB for short.

:P

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Just now, Dave78 said:

 

Personally i think they should have gone with 'Black Lives Matter And So Do All Lives So Calm The Fuck Doon Ye Racist Bawbags'

Or BLMASDALSCTFDYRB for short.

:P

🤣🤣

I knew a great visionary would pull it out the bag ! 

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45 minutes ago, phart said:

Why's the name of the movement rather than aims your primary motivation for posting in the subject though?We have all this mentalness and your public comments are on the name?

It's like watching the Berlin wall come down and someone going on about the colour of the handles on the hammers used, it's just inane.

I had a chuckle at someone getting the first word in the party name wrong, when its much more common to get the second one wrong - or more likely to deliberately misrepresent it. 

Your argument is spot on otherwise.

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51 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Scotland isn't in their name. ;) 

I agree that they could have picked a better name when they started the party many decades ago. 

Nothing particularly wrong or controversial in the name itself, just that it allows opponents to misrepresent it, that's all.

Funny how the Conservatives seem to think that Tories in a perjorative though.

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54 minutes ago, phart said:

Why's the name of the movement rather than aims your primary motivation for posting in the subject though?We have all this mentalness and your public comments are on the name?

It's like watching the Berlin wall come down and someone going on about the colour of the handles on the hammers used, it's just inane.

I don't know what their aims are to be honest.

I do think the name does provoke people to say stuff like "White lives matter too" and "All lives matter". Whether that was intentional or not, I don't know. When they then try to stop people saying those things, it creates even more division on top of the divisions that are already there. Unless that is one of their objectives in the first place?

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1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

 

Personally i think they should have gone with 'Black Lives Matter And So Do All Lives So Calm The Fuck Doon Ye Racist Bawbags'

Or BLMASDALSCTFDYRB for short.

:P

What about people with dyslexia, 

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5 hours ago, Tartan_Don said:

I listened to the Tony Livesey link Exile, no need for your clarification as I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth and I don't want this to become a two person debate 

 

Sure, it's not a 2 person debate but I think there is some genuine confusion here. When you say...

Quote

"Black lives matter" you are supporting an injustice in society?

Quote

BLM - you are supporting an injustice in society

...do you mean "supporting/reinforcing an injustice  in society" or do you mean "supporting those who argue against injustice in society"?

These could have opposite meaning and it's hard to take things forward if we're not understanding what is meant.

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

I had a chuckle at someone getting the first word in the party name wrong, when its much more common to get the second one wrong - or more likely to deliberately misrepresent it. 

Your argument is spot on otherwise.

I wish i could say it was one of my deliberate mistakes but it was just a brain phart.

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5 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I agree with this. ‘Black Lives Matter’ as a statement on its own is simple and true, but as a name for a movement that was tackling racism surely they must have realised it would lead to an outcry of ‘ white lives matter ‘ or ‘all lives matter’ .
Maybe it was deliberate to draw attention to the subject, but if anything it seems to have created even more division. 

But why should it lead to an outcry?

To use Livesay's example: you can say "Save the Children" without people getting indignant and retorting "But let's save adults too, all lives matter!" Similarly "Help the Aged", people don't get indignant and retort "But let's help people of all ages and abilities". They accept that things aren't good enough, for those groups, in the world as it is.

If "All lives matter" then it must apply to people of all ethnicities, skin colours, ages, genders, and so on. But some people seem to have a problem with the unqualified subset "black lives matter"; they react with indignation and denial, defensiveness, deflection and whataboutery. 

I honestly don't know if that's the best name/slogan or if it was chosen to provoke.

But the more I see the reaction, the more I think it must have been promoted to help provoke discussion, and change things, and that they must think that any "division" must be worth it, rather than sweeping things under the carpet, business as usual.

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36 minutes ago, exile said:

But why should it lead to an outcry?

To use Livesay's example: you can say "Save the Children" without people getting indignant and retorting "But let's save adults too, all lives matter!" Similarly "Help the Aged", people don't get indignant and retort "But let's help people of all ages and abilities". They accept that things aren't good enough, for those groups, in the world as it is.

If "All lives matter" then it must apply to people of all ethnicities, skin colours, ages, genders, and so on. But some people seem to have a problem with the unqualified subset "black lives matter"; they react with indignation and denial, defensiveness, deflection and whataboutery. 

I honestly don't know if that's the best name/slogan or if it was chosen to provoke.

But the more I see the reaction, the more I think it must have been promoted to help provoke discussion, and change things, and that they must think that any "division" must be worth it, rather than sweeping things under the carpet, business as usual.

I dont think you will get many adults arguing against saving children and there is no historic divide between those two groups. There arent groups of right wing adults hating children.

Thats why there is an outcry from morons

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43 minutes ago, exile said:

But why should it lead to an outcry?

To use Livesay's example: you can say "Save the Children" without people getting indignant and retorting "But let's save adults too, all lives matter!" Similarly "Help the Aged", people don't get indignant and retort "But let's help people of all ages and abilities". They accept that things aren't good enough, for those groups, in the world as it is.

If "All lives matter" then it must apply to people of all ethnicities, skin colours, ages, genders, and so on. But some people seem to have a problem with the unqualified subset "black lives matter"; they react with indignation and denial, defensiveness, deflection and whataboutery. 

I honestly don't know if that's the best name/slogan or if it was chosen to provoke.

But the more I see the reaction, the more I think it must have been promoted to help provoke discussion, and change things, and that they must think that any "division" must be worth it, rather than sweeping things under the carpet, business as usual.

Actually it is team you who has the problem with the unqualified subset White Lives Matter and even All Lives Matter. No one on here has a problem with Black Lives Matter but when you start calling people racists etc for saying All Lives Matter or White Lives Matter than quite rightly people think this is double standard thinly veiled bullshit.

You say sweeping under the carpet...but I asked you earlier... There are more unarmed Whites killed by cops than unarmed blacks... but can you name even one of them. (Without googling.) You cant because it is their deaths who are 'swept under the carpet' by the media. The Black killings are headline news for weeks and weeks (even when some of them shouldn't be) but the media has no interest in the unarmed White killings because there is no race hustle angle in it. Which is why I say you are being played.

The crime statistics show that of black/white interracial violent crime over 90% of the cases in the most recent year were black on white. When you consider the relative size of the black population versus the white in the US that is crazy imbalanced. White people are not attacking and killing Black people disproportionately, it is quite the reverse, wildly the reverse.

The cop killing statistics also don't support the BLM bullshit. Of the hundreds of millions of cop interactions in 2019 it was something like 9 unarmed blacks and 18 unarmed whites killed by police. When you factor in the relative crime rates unarmed Blacks are less likely to get shot than unarmed Whites. To put those numbers into context more unarmed Black people are routinely killed in Chicago in a single day than are killed by cops over a year, and mostly by other Blacks. Where are Black Lives Matter when it comes to this utter carnage. Nowhere. They are sham. A trojan horse for a pile of divisive marxist bullshit. 

ps the thread went south due to the usual Moxic arsehole turning up. He is the common denominator to it every time. 

Edited by thplinth
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54 minutes ago, exile said:

But why should it lead to an outcry?

To use Livesay's example: you can say "Save the Children" without people getting indignant and retorting "But let's save adults too, all lives matter!" Similarly "Help the Aged", people don't get indignant and retort "But let's help people of all ages and abilities". They accept that things aren't good enough, for those groups, in the world as it is.

If "All lives matter" then it must apply to people of all ethnicities, skin colours, ages, genders, and so on. But some people seem to have a problem with the unqualified subset "black lives matter"; they react with indignation and denial, defensiveness, deflection and whataboutery. 

I honestly don't know if that's the best name/slogan or if it was chosen to provoke.

But the more I see the reaction, the more I think it must have been promoted to help provoke discussion, and change things, and that they must think that any "division" must be worth it, rather than sweeping things under the carpet, business as usual.

I think Vanderark has pretty much said what I would probably take 5 paragraphs to say.
Whilst , logically , people could perceive the titles ‘Help the Aged‘ and ‘Save the Children ‘ as discrimination, in reality no one would go out their way to highlight this.   
I just find it a little naive to think, realistically , that the same reasoning would be applied here  or that the name ‘Black Lives Matter‘  will not create the reaction it has in certain sections.
 
It should not make an iota of a difference, but unfortunately  it does.
 
 

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7 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I think Vanderark has pretty much said what I would probably take 5 paragraphs to say.
Whilst , logically , people could perceive the titles ‘Help the Aged‘ and ‘Save the Children ‘ as discrimination, in reality no one would go out their way to highlight this.   
I just find it a little naive to think, realistically , that the same reasoning would be applied here  or that the name ‘Black Lives Matter‘  will not create the reaction it has in certain sections.
 
It should not make an iota of a difference, but unfortunately  it does.
 
 

I don't think anyone is being naive about the possibility the slogan BLM could be considered provocative. I'm ready to accept it could have been promoted prcisely because it might shake things up. 

But I wouldn't call saving children 'discrimination' (in the way the word is normally used, as a bad or harmful thing). Similarly, helping older people or supporting other vulnerable groups.

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15 hours ago, exile said:

I don't think anyone is being naive about the possibility the slogan BLM could be considered provocative. I'm ready to accept it could have been promoted prcisely because it might shake things up. 

But I wouldn't call saving children 'discrimination' (in the way the word is normally used, as a bad or harmful thing). Similarly, helping older people or supporting other vulnerable groups.

Of course its not discrimination and nobody in their right mind would try to twist the titles to suggest it is . Nor is it discrimination against other races to say that Black Lives Matter.
Its only becomes a sort of warped discrimination if you apply reverse logic to all the titles. 

But as Vanderark says, there are not groups of adults out there who hate children but there are plenty who hate people because of the colour of their skin and IMO the title of BLM plays into their hands. 

But there is probably no point debating over the name as the underlying cause is what is important .  And Save the Children and Help the Aged are decent comparisons to use when speaking to more balanced minds. 


 

 

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2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Of course its not discrimination and nobody in their right mind would try to twist the titles to suggest it is . Nor is it discrimination against other races to say that Black Lives Matter.
Its only becomes a sort of warped discrimination if you apply reverse logic to all the titles. 

But as Vanderark says, there are not groups of adults out there who hate children but there are plenty who hate people because of the colour of their skin and IMO the title of BLM plays into their hands. 

But there is probably no point debating over the name as the underlying cause is what is important .  And Save the Children and Help the Aged are decent comparisons to use when speaking to more balanced minds. 


 

 

Hmm, I see what you mean, though it seems there is more than one discussion/argument going on here. It seems to me that the statement BLM is not just provocative to people 'who hate people becasue of the colour of their skin', but is unsettling to people who are not racist in that sense; people who are (were) happy with the world as it is (was) - in terms of balance of power between different groups - and see the current period as unnecessarily divisive and unsettling. I don't have a fixed view on this, but I imagine that those who want change would think the provocation is worth it while others think it not worth  it and yet others who actually don't want that change to take place. I do think the issue is at least worth airing, even at the risk of a negative response.

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6 minutes ago, exile said:

Hmm, I see what you mean, though it seems there is more than one discussion/argument going on here. It seems to me that the statement BLM is not just provocative to people 'who hate people becasue of the colour of their skin', but is unsettling to people who are not racist in that sense; people who are (were) happy with the world as it is (was) - in terms of balance of power between different groups - and see the current period as unnecessarily divisive and unsettling. I don't have a fixed view on this, but I imagine that those who want change would think the provocation is worth it while others think it not worth  it and yet others who actually don't want that change to take place. I do think the issue is at least worth airing, even at the risk of a negative response.

Who are almost entirely white males - probably middle aged - who think that somehow movements like BLM will lead to them being discriminated against when they don''t realise that it you are male, straight, white and - in this country at least - hold a UK passport, you have all the advantages going.    Sort of people who go "When's International Men's Day then?", when it's International Women's Day, oblivious to the fact that it's the 19th November but every day is White, Straight Men's day.    Don't think racism particularly comes into it, more insecurity.  Sad really.

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Ideas have always been generational and as they clash with the established paradigm there are always problems the wailing we're going through the umpteenth iteration of this.

Max Planck described it perfectly when he said

""A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.""

or as it was more succintly paraphrased science advances one funeral at a time.

There are obvious exceptions of course.

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1 hour ago, phart said:

Ideas have always been generational and as they clash with the established paradigm there are always problems the wailing we're going through the umpteenth iteration of this.

Max Planck described it perfectly when he said

""A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.""

or as it was more succintly paraphrased science advances one funeral at a time.

There are obvious exceptions of course.

Another quote for you.....

 

“It ought to be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. This coolness arises partly from fear of the opponents, who have the laws on their side, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them.”


 Niccolò Machiavelli, The Prince

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

Who are almost entirely white males - probably middle aged - who think that somehow movements like BLM will lead to them being discriminated against when they don''t realise that it you are male, straight, white and - in this country at least - hold a UK passport, you have all the advantages going.    Sort of people who go "When's International Men's Day then?", when it's International Women's Day, oblivious to the fact that it's the 19th November but every day is White, Straight Men's day.    Don't think racism particularly comes into it, more insecurity.  Sad really.

I have to say that is a fairly accurate based on my experience of people who are unhappy about this. I do think it is an insecurity more than anything else. 
 

1 hour ago, phart said:

Ideas have always been generational and as they clash with the established paradigm there are always problems the wailing we're going through the umpteenth iteration of this.

Max Planck described it perfectly when he said

""A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.""

or as it was more succintly paraphrased science advances one funeral at a time.

There are obvious exceptions of course.

Very good statement. 

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I would just add, as I think others have said or implied, the slogan BLM may be part of the problem at least in sense of becoming a distraction - if it just leads to acrimony ('a noxious cocktail of posturing and piety') - away from the actual issues...

As it happens, an article in today's FT: Waking up to the realities of racism in the UK and here's a Scottish perspective, Dealing with being different: Young people facing racism in Scotland.

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don't think about racism much

lived in South Africa 8 years, and some of the afrikaners are raicist hoors - although Coloured in ZA can also be quite racist about blacks

Been working in US now for over 1 year

One of the Nigerian guys at work said something to me year back which i think i agree with.  American black citizens do not have the same confidence, as the african black nationals.

More i think about it - slavery etc is not that long ago - 150 years, and only a few generations  for many  people, and the 60's/70's are not that long ago - Then you get into, not been able to purchase property - incidents like below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre   

This one turns your stomach, about Mary Turner  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1918_lynchings

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It won't be one or another.

If it was solely the "welfare state" then the same problems would exist wherever a "welfare state" existed.

Study after study has shown that wealth is a greater predictor of "success" than ability/intelligence/opportunity etc.

"Young people who are minorities, or from the working class, or low income who are talented when they are young -- they don't make it to the finish line,” Carnevale said. “That is, this study goes all the way into the labor market, and in the end, the loss rate of these young people is huge."

By looking at years of data from different sources, the Georgetown researchers found that smart poor students are less likely to become wealthy by age 25 than not-so-smart rich students. The poor students also have less chance of graduating from college than their low-performing wealthy peers."

"The study also found that racial disparities magnify the problems. Poor black and Latino students who are smart, are less likely to find success than their poor and smart white peers. "

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/schooled2lose/

So starting at a lower level of wealth means your offspring are statistcally more likely to start at a lower level of wealth.

Past is prologue

https://1gyhoq479ufd3yna29x7ubjn-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/FR-Born_to_win-schooled_to_lose.pdf

 

Edited by phart
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8 hours ago, euan2020 said:

don't think about racism much

lived in South Africa 8 years, and some of the afrikaners are raicist hoors - although Coloured in ZA can also be quite racist about blacks

Been working in US now for over 1 year

One of the Nigerian guys at work said something to me year back which i think i agree with.  American black citizens do not have the same confidence, as the african black nationals.

More i think about it - slavery etc is not that long ago - 150 years, and only a few generations  for many  people, and the 60's/70's are not that long ago - Then you get into, not been able to purchase property - incidents like below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre   

This one turns your stomach, about Mary Turner  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1918_lynchings

Remember reading about Black Wall Street  and dropping bombs from planes on them!

The stuff about black folk losing their farmland shows how systemic it is too even now:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/29/why-have-americas-black-farmers-disappeared

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-southern-black-farmers-were-forced-from-their-land-and-their-heritage

 

In the 1950's Asians only made up 0.2% of the US population and were welcome to sit at the front of the bus. There's accounts of Japanese folk being actually instructed to sit at the front of the bus so a nationality who they were in abhorrent conflict with a decade previous were more welcome to sit with white folk than the black folk who helped defend them. That sort of deeply entrenched racism isn't going to shift easy.  

It's that recent that folk in school during desegregation in late 60's will only now be reaching retirement so boardrooms will have members whose early education was formed in and around segregation. 

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