The Vow - Delivered

[scotlad]

Anyway, great to see the fiscal framework finally sorted out.  For a while it looked for all the world like they weren't going to get anywhere.  

It will be interesting to see what the various parties propose in their manifestos now the Scottish parliament will have a bit more clout.  It's nowhere near as good as full independence, but it's an improvement on what we had before.

[Orraloon]

19 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Anyway, great to see the fiscal framework finally sorted out.  For a while it looked for all the world like they weren't going to get anywhere.  

It will be interesting to see what the various parties propose in their manifestos now the Scottish parliament will have a bit more clout.  It's nowhere near as good as full independence, but it's an improvement on what we had before.

I don't think the 2015 Scotland Bill will make much difference to anything. 

It is good that they have managed to stop Westminster ripping us off any more than they already do, though.

[Parklife]

9 hours ago, scotlad said:

One poster on this thread made reference to Jackie Baillie's weight (or rather, her eating habits) and another laughed.  That was it.

For clarification, I find the woman repulsive (so much so that even the mere mention of her name is capable of almost putting me off my brekkie) precisely because of her weak political convictions and generally unctuous demeanour.  She could look like Cindy Crawford in an M&Co suit and I am sure I she would still have the same effect.

It's not just this thread though, as I'm sure you're aware. 

I don't really give a shit tbh, I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy.  

[fishcumnock]

On 11/11/2015 at 9:07 AM, ParisInAKilt said:

52 minutes ago, Parklife said:

It's not just this thread though, as I'm sure you're aware. 

I don't really give a shit tbh, I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy.  

 

She's really thick though parkie and must know it,but still comes out with pissh

 

 

 

[Scunnered]

Bet she can use the quote feature on a messageboard though

[teecee-]

1 hour ago, Scunnered said:

Bet she can use the quote feature on a messageboard though

It's an Ayrshire thing.

[scotlad]

14 hours ago, Orraloon said:

I don't think the 2015 Scotland Bill will make much difference to anything.

It is good that they have managed to stop Westminster ripping us off any more than they already do, though.

Off the top of my head, the power to vary income tax bands is a big step forward, as is the power to potentially create a new disability benefit.

Most other forms of taxation and social security remain reserved, however, as does authority over industrial relations and the minimum wage.

So aye, not brilliant but a step in the right direction.  And we don't appear to have been shafted for a change, which is a bonus.
 

5 hours ago, Parklife said:

It's not just this thread though, as I'm sure you're aware.

I don't really give a shit tbh, I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy.

Aye, well, people do have a tendency towards blind spots for folk on 'their team', I won't deny that.  The Michelle Thomson thread was perhaps a better example though.  I didn't feel anyone was especially guilty of it in this particular thread, apart from possibly Toepoke (the awful, awful fatshamer that he is).

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, scotlad said:

Off the top of my head, the power to vary income tax bands is a big step forward, as is the power to potentially create a new disability benefit.

 

I don't think there is any chance that they will increase income tax. I really hope that they don't fall into that trap. Any extra income tax that they hope to raise would be more than wiped out by a small number of folk moving their tax affairs south of the border. It would only take a very small percentage of the folk affected to do that, for it to be a total waste of time. These folk wouldn't just be avoiding paying the extra tax but moving all their income tax south of the border. 

If anything, I would prefer to see them reduce income tax and increase other taxes which can't be moved south. But they don't have the powers to do that. There are good reasons why they decided to give us income tax and not much else. None of those reasons were to help Scotland.

[fishcumnock]

7 hours ago, Scunnered said:

Bet she can use the quote feature on a messageboard though

I left a previous one unwritten ya smart bxxxxxxx

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, scotlad said:

And we don't appear to have been shafted for a change, which is a bonus.
 

 

Wisnae for the want of trying. Them Tory kunts tried to rip us off. We need to keep reminding folk of that.

Thankfully John Swinney stood up for the people of Scotland.

[aaid]

23 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Thankfully John Swinney stood up for the people of Scotland.

A great man, a hero of Scotland.

[jailender]

I think Sweeney did a good job, but agree with what Orraloon says above about not getting control over the other taxes. We may find out that the deal is not all it seems, as it limits actions by the SG.

[exile]

UK government boasts that "The Vow" was a gigantic con-trick

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/uk-government-boasts-that-vow-was.html

[Ormond]

21 minutes ago, exile said:

UK government boasts that "The Vow" was a gigantic con-trick

 

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/uk-government-boasts-that-vow-was.html

Those who thought at the time that "the vow" was genuine are clearly not very bright.

[thplinth]

I have come to the conclusion the SNP are pussies. They should never have accepted the result after this interference days before the vote. They are just too soft and too nice. Even on here folk were rolling over and still are. It makes me sick if I am honest. 

[Ormond]

7 hours ago, thplinth said:

I have come to the conclusion the SNP are pussies.

Our entire nation are pussies in general. Whether it be politics or sport. We just suck it up and accept we are too wee, too daft, etc. 

[exile]

9 hours ago, thplinth said:

I have come to the conclusion the SNP are pussies. They should never have accepted the result after this interference days before the vote. They are just too soft and too nice. Even on here folk were rolling over and still are. It makes me sick if I am honest. 

Maybe someone should have done a legalistic examination of whether the Vow was 'kosher'. But the political reality is that the major players - who had signed the Edinburgh Agreement - had to accept the result. With a hostile press there's no way they'd be allowed to claim the game's a bogey - they'd be pilloried as bad losers.

It's very difficult to prove how many people were really swung by it - and the more vacuous or duplicitous it appears with hindsight, the less people are likely to admit it swayed them. But it still has political significance, to recall how vacuous or duplicitous it was.

[Ally Bongo]

It probably swayed a lot of people to go out and vote No who were intending not to bother

[exile]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

It probably swayed a lot of people to go out and vote No who were intending not to bother

Or come to think of it, anyone who was a very soft Yes might not bother voting, knowing the worst outcome would be DevoMax-style federalism. Those people would not show up as "No voters swayed by Vow". All a bit hypothetical though.

[Guest flumax]

Ignoring soft turnouts etc the vow only needed to convince  1 in 20, that's all it took.  polls afterwards show only 3.4% swayed by the vow https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/scotland-blog/2015/mar/26/the-vow-was-not-a-decisive-factor-in-scots-voting-no-to-indepedence

 

Factoring in margins of error 3.4% in a sample poll is not a million miles away from 5% in the referendum.

 

The vow worked,but I  imagine very few no voters now feel suckered and tbh I'd imagine 50% of the population couldn't give a flying fig. No point trying to say "they lied". Yes voters are entrenched and it won't turn soft No's over. 

[AlfieMoon]

6 hours ago, exile said:

Maybe someone should have done a legalistic examination of whether the Vow was 'kosher'. But the political reality is that the major players - who had signed the Edinburgh Agreement - had to accept the result. With a hostile press there's no way they'd be allowed to claim the game's a bogey - they'd be pilloried as bad losers.

It's very difficult to prove how many people were really swung by it - and the more vacuous or duplicitous it appears with hindsight, the less people are likely to admit it swayed them. But it still has political significance, to recall how vacuous or duplicitous it was.

Regardless of whether it was or was not kosha - am I not right in remembering that it was produced during 'purdah' meaning that there should have been no political shifts/promises/commitments in alteration to what had been said/offered prior to the commencement of the purdah period? 

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, AlfieMoon said:

Regardless of whether it was or was not kosha - am I not right in remembering that it was produced during 'purdah' meaning that there should have been no political shifts/promises/commitments in alteration to what had been said/offered prior to the commencement of the purdah period? 

Are you saying that London had acted by the book in the run up before the vow? 

[jockodile]

My take was whilst the Vow may have been pivotal it probably only swayed a very small % from unknown to No.

What it absolutely did do however was give permission for a much larger % of people who were already almost certain to vote no a ready made concious cleansing get out. 

Irrespective of the genuine pros and cons that had been argued to death over 2 years,  whether people liked Salmond, believing the currency union and all the detail in white paper etc there was always that moment alone in the ballot box where essentially you are voting against your country gaining nation status. For many, possibly most, even if unconvinced by the proposal of Yes Scotland, this would be a uncomfortable moment.

The vow made this much easier. It was a guilt free fall back which would have been so seductive. 

It is impossible to tell if those folks would have voted No anyway and just tried to downplay it but I suspect those Nos instead of abstaining made all the difference. 

Look at how quickly many No voters wanted to move on from IndyRef. There is a certain inner angst that comes with voting against your nation. The UK govt realised that but almost too late.

The vow in retrospect was a master stroke.  I was surprised there was not an equivalent in the Brexit ref.

 

[Rossy]

4 hours ago, jockodile said:

The vow in retrospect was a master stroke.  I was surprised there was not an equivalent in the Brexit ref.

 

Cameron tried that, but got his arse severely booted by the EU.

[Squirrelhumper]

I miss Scunnered.