Indyref 2 (2)

[Hertsscot]

8 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

"Scotland's Champion" going all out Yoon

The Labour Party. That'll be the one that lied about North Sea oil, the one that stole Scotland's waters, the one where a FM sent £1.5 billion back to London as he couldn't think how to spend it, the one who took us into illegal wars, the one who saddled taxpayers with ridiculous PFI contracts, whose current leader admires Margaret Thatcher who sold off so many public goods and whose Scottish leader is a puppet who just does what his London based leader tells him. Aye, that'll be the answer.

 

[Hertsscot]

4 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

whats she saying?

 

This?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23987086.scottish-budget-obr-experts-lay-bare-tories-economic-ineptitude/

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

This?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23987086.scottish-budget-obr-experts-lay-bare-tories-economic-ineptitude/

Shona Robison could have explained all that just as well, she just...didn't want to.

6 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

just catching up as i have been traveling all day,, we missed a trick with kate and chose a donkey instead

We did indeed. 

We Scots miss more tricks than a child with ADHD at a David Blaine show.

[Dave78]

26 minutes ago, scotlad said:

 

We Scots miss more tricks than a child with ADHD at a David Blaine show.

😂🤭

True, unfortunately

[hampden_loon2878]

i am really starting to doubt if humza will make the next GE, the suggestion of tax rises to fill the black hole he has created should put the feaqr into all independence supporters. the previous tax rises were marginally acceptable due to being a choice and not having to do it for pure financial reasons, this however will send out a message that and indy scotland would need tax rises to fill shortfalls in finances,,, him and robinson couldnt run a bath, never mind a SG or independent scotland,,,,shambles

[Alibi]

I find it hard to believe that support for Labour in Scotland is showing a resurgence.  Apart from all the stuff listed up the page a short distance, Labour are now strongly Brexity, and very anti-indy - Lisa Nandy wants indy supporters beaten up by the polis, or so she says.  Labour would never countenance Scotland having the same arrangement as NI because we don't really do bombing stuff.  Starmer is strongly pro-Israel and is happy with Gaza being obliterated with tens of thousands killed.  His policies are pretty much Tory with a few minor cosmetic changes - Labour is the Morris to the Tories' Wolseley for anyone who remembers 60s badge engineering.  Labour will not be good for Scotland.  What a pity we no longer have an actual Scottish party that will stand up for Scotland in a meaningful way, but all we get are daft policies and woke wankers putting their pronouns in their signatures, things that drive away support.

[Alibi]

6 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

i am really starting to doubt if humza will make the next GE, the suggestion of tax rises to fill the black hole he has created should put the feaqr into all independence supporters. the previous tax rises were marginally acceptable due to being a choice and not having to do it for pure financial reasons, this however will send out a message that and indy scotland would need tax rises to fill shortfalls in finances,,, him and robinson couldnt run a bath, never mind a SG or independent scotland,,,,shambles

Can't argue with the optics of that.  However an indy Scotland would, if done properly, raise taxes from exploitation of our resources rather than all monies heading south.  Things that need to be done at the moment are due to being in the union.  If they would only explain that in simple terms, people might be more accepting and also might see the need for indy, but they won't do it because they're too fucking thick or don't actually want indy - you decide.  Any tax rises need to be accompanied by a statement along the lines of "We are having to do this because currently our finances are controlled by another country.  Indy would mean we could avoid these extra taxes as Scotland freed would be a wealthier country." or words to that effect.  Not holding my breath.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Alibi

[Grim Jim]

Leave the union and walk away from the UK debt we didn't create.   Biggest money saver right there.

 

[Orraloon]

26 minutes ago, Grim Jim said:

Leave the union and walk away from the UK debt we didn't create.   Biggest money saver right there.

 

That is one message we need to get out loud and clear if we ever get near to another referendum. AS is the best politician we have ever had, but even the best make mistakes. That was one of the biggest political mistakes that he ever made.  

[Alibi]

There was a lot of comment in 2014 along the lines of "We must offer to take on our share of the national debt even though legally we don't have to".  Why?  We weren't responsible for running up the massive debt.  We've had so many of our resources stolen from us, getting rid of the debt is the least we deserve.

[Malcolm]

4 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

i am really starting to doubt if humza will make the next GE, the suggestion of tax rises to fill the black hole he has created should put the feaqr into all independence supporters. the previous tax rises were marginally acceptable due to being a choice and not having to do it for pure financial reasons, this however will send out a message that and indy scotland would need tax rises to fill shortfalls in finances,,, him and robinson couldnt run a bath, never mind a SG or independent scotland,,,,shambles

100% agree with this.  The message is clear - tax Scots for his own incompetence.

the SNP need to be saved from themselves.

[PapofGlencoe]

Always the same people don't want to be taxed but we've had double digit inflation and state of our services are poor, just look at the sport centre closures in Lanarkshire.  We can't have no tax increases forever.  That's absurd.

The increase obviously needs to be progressive.

Money has to come from somewhere.  Unless you cut, what's left to cut? 

 

[Malcolm]

9 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Always the same people don't want to be taxed but we've had double digit inflation and state of our services are poor, just look at the sport centre closures in Lanarkshire.  We can't have no tax increases forever.  That's absurd.

The increase obviously needs to be progressive.

Money has to come from somewhere.  Unless you cut, what's left to cut? 

 

Not sure you have noticed but we have the highest tax regime since the 1970s where Britain was on its knees. If you are taxing someone at 50% or above, psychologically they are working more for the government than themselves.

High taxes remove the inventive to work.  The only way out of this is economic growth.  I think the lower rate of tax is too low and would like to see us back at 25% low rate and 40% high rate with a higher personal allowance.

[Malcolm]

And fiscal drag is a joke - 42% tax at 42k when 30 years ago it was 40% at 36k…. Utter nonsense.  Of course it’s 50k in England.  Should really be about 60k

[PapofGlencoe]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Not sure you have noticed but we have the highest tax regime since the 1970s where Britain was on its knees. If you are taxing someone at 50% or above, psychologically they are working more for the government than themselves.

High taxes remove the inventive to work.  The only way out of this is economic growth.  I think the lower rate of tax is too low and would like to see us back at 25% low rate and 40% high rate with a higher personal allowance.

It can annoy higher earners or it can come from poor people.  There ain't any growth and the money is needed now.

This idea there would be a boon in economic growth with a regressive tax regime is highly debatable but even if taken for granted it won't pay today's or even next year's bills.

[hampden_loon2878]

52 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Always the same people don't want to be taxed but we've had double digit inflation and state of our services are poor, just look at the sport centre closures in Lanarkshire.  We can't have no tax increases forever.  That's absurd.

The increase obviously needs to be progressive.

Money has to come from somewhere.  Unless you cut, what's left to cut? 

 

the problem is that there will be no tax rises to the south,, the implications on folks perception on what that would mean for an independent scotland cant be underestimated, the snp are for independence and whats best to achieve independence, higher taxes will convince no one the an independent scotland will be better for them

Edited December 14, 2023 by hampden_loon2878

[PapofGlencoe]

8 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

the problem is that there will be no tax rises to the south,, the implications on folks perception on what that would mean for an independent scotland cant be underestimated, the snp are for independence and whats best to achieve independence, higher taxes will convince no one the an independent scotland will be better for them

better services will convince more people

youre talking as if there is a huge difference.  It's minimal and covers a gap or funds services.

We've already had this debate with the intermediate rate and higher rate and no exodus arose.  

 

I would also gently say, the bills don't care about the independence debate in the same way they don't care about a low tax utopia in the offing.  They need paid today.  So something needs to be done. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by PapofGlencoe

[hampden_loon2878]

4 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

better services will convince more people

youre talking as if there is a huge difference.  It's minimal and covers a gap or funds services.

We've already had this debate with the intermediate rate and higher rate and no exodus arose.  

its the signal it sends out, can we say there has been a visible improvement in service since the last tax increase? i cant,, therefore to the general public the are going to see incompetence

[hampden_loon2878]

humza not well today,, feeling the pressure ?

[PapofGlencoe]

10 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

its the signal it sends out, can we say there has been a visible improvement in service since the last tax increase? i cant,, therefore to the general public the are going to see incompetence

My family receive a lot more child support so yes I have seen an improvement in some areas.  But in general, no i haven't.  I dont think there's enough money or it's been spent badly.  I suspect it's more likely to be the former notwithstanding obvious grumbles.  it won't get better with less money will it?

Large (yet below inflation) wage increases had to be paid for out of a real terms budget decrease and the money has to come from somewhere. 

I hear you but these increases are merely to make things less bad. 😅 They are almost never to make things better! 

 

edited to add: there's the obvious one that we get things here that the English don't.  If the English were to get free prescriptons, tuition at the point of need and bus passes they'd think improvements had been made.  We've just had it for so long.  But they need paid for.  Up until now most Scots have paid less than their English counterparts with the burden going onto those with the broadest shoulders.  So most Scots who pay less or similar to the English should maybe think on that..

Edited December 14, 2023 by PapofGlencoe

[Diamond Scot]

40 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

better services will convince more people

youre talking as if there is a huge difference.  It's minimal and covers a gap or funds services.

We've already had this debate with the intermediate rate and higher rate and no exodus arose.  

 

I would also gently say, the bills don't care about the independence debate in the same way they don't care about a low tax utopia in the offing.  They need paid today.  So something needs to be done. 

The problem with this this is that Scot Gov / Scot press is awful or non existent at highlighting any differences as it would be percieved as being anti English.

Services in England are a shambles, we think our NHS is bad but theirs is a disgrace. There are loads of areas in England that are properly poverty stricken but it wouldnt be proper to highlight it for political gain.

[Malcolm]

I really hope Humzah does not introduce another tax band.  When devolution was introduced my understanding was that they could only vary up or down (as if we would ever pay less tax in Scotland lol) by 3% but not vary the bands which they have already done.

in England you can earn £50K without hitting high rate tax.  Our financial incompetence really does make me doubt the value of our parliament despite voting for it.  I wish our country was run by business people.

[Hertsscot]

41 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I wish our country was run by business people.

Like Michelle Mone and her hubby?

[Malcolm]

1 minute ago, Hertsscot said:

Like Michelle Mone and her hubby?

they would do a better job than humzah.

[Old Timer]

29 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

they would do a better job than humzah.

And that's where I just stopped trying to understand your points.