Indyref 2 (2)

[Orraloon]

19 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

Haven't there always been readily accepted exceptions to the TWAW statement though? For example, in sport.

I don't see this as the zinger some folk seem to think it is. Just seems logical and pragmatic to me.

It's the spin that is being put on it by the media, and some folk seem to be buying into it. As you say, it all looks fairly logical when you actually look into it a bit deeper. Folk just want to use it as another SNP bad story. 

Mixing up the GRR (Scotland) Bill and what may, or may not, be happening to a few offenders in prisons, is just a deliberate ploy to muddy the waters. Folk who can't be bothered reading about it, or have an anti SNP agenda, can't seem to accept that these are two separate issues. 

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Only because they have too many other things to fight amongst themselves about. 

I doubt that's the only reason.  As a centre-right party they don't have to worry themselves too much about right-on stuff - people don't expect it of them.  Labour and the SNP though (and the Lib Dems, to a lesser extent) are expected to be "progressive".  

[Malcolm]

34 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I doubt that's the only reason.  As a centre-right party they don't have to worry themselves too much about right-on stuff - people don't expect it of them.  Labour and the SNP though (and the Lib Dems, to a lesser extent) are expected to be "progressive".  

in my experience, generally the “right on” stuff is bad 😂

[Malcolm]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

Im not saying you shouldnt pass your wealth onto your offspring.

Im saying there has to be a better system for taxing what the offspring do with the wealth. My mate for example pays very little tax as all he is doing is buying houses and either doing them up renting them. His story will be replicated many times up and down the country. Personally I dont believe that people or companies should be able to own multiple properties. Id put an increasing tax that would make owning more than 3 or 4 properties not worthwhile. That way somebody could have a 2nd home and 1 or 2 properties to either do up or rent out. But would do away with the hoarding of properties which drive up rent costs and property costs.

there’s a good reason for the saying “safe as houses”…. Income generating asset that also accumulates in value.  

if you buy property through a company, you can also extract the return as unearned income which means you can take up to Uk government levels before paying higher tax ie 50k not 43.5k.  say, for example your pension returns 30k… you can extract £20kin dividends before punitive tax.

Where’s with a pension you are shafted after 43.5k

 

 

 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, DOUBLE A said:

Good luck, think that’s the 3rd time you’ve tried to move this thread to the non stop childish bickering about how bad/good Sturgeon and the rest are and how the GRA is good/bad etc etc, but no doubt that will continue. 
 

For me the thing that will either make or break things is money, if people can be convinced that they won’t be a lot worse off after independence as think that’s why a lot of folk late on the last time moved from yes to no 

It beggars belief that people are whipped into a frenzy on something that is affecting a gazillionth of the population whilst the list of UK government sleaze , corruption and wasted cash that affects the entire country virtually goes unreported/unnoticed . Its like people are looking for an excuse to vote No. 

[hampden_loon2878]

12 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

It beggars belief that people are whipped into a frenzy on something that is affecting a gazillionth of the population whilst the list of UK government sleaze , corruption and wasted cash that affects the entire country virtually goes unreported/unnoticed . Its like people are looking for an excuse to vote No. 

it’s such an easy thing to get the general public concerned about, mothers,fathers, religious folk, bigoted folk that’s why it’s blown up, it’s universally unpopular,, did you honestly not see this shit storm happening? 

[Orraloon]

28 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

it’s such an easy thing to get the general public concerned about, mothers,fathers, religious folk, bigoted folk that’s why it’s blown up, it’s universally unpopular,, did you honestly not see this shit storm happening? 

If it's "universally unpopular" how did it get voted through in the Scottish Parliament?

[phart]

1 minute ago, Orraloon said:

If it's "universally unpopular" how did it get voted through in the Scottish Parliament?

It's not, thinking it is a symptom of being perpeutally online, in a social media bubble chamber and believing everything you read.

[ParisInAKilt]

22 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

If it's "universally unpopular" how did it get voted through in the Scottish Parliament?

Politicians don’t care / know what the public think?

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

it’s such an easy thing to get the general public concerned about, mothers,fathers, religious folk, bigoted folk that’s why it’s blown up, it’s universally unpopular,, did you honestly not see this shit storm happening? 

No , I never saw it coming. The only social media I use is here. In my real life, no one has ever mentioned GRR or men in womens prisons, despite the fact it has been going on for years. The reaction to this, in relation to the changes that are being made and the number of people affected, is massively out of proportion and are, without a shadow of a doubt, being manipulated for political gain. Oh for the day folk get this animated about £47 million of uk cabinet expenses or minesterial codes being broken right left and centre. Does not that affect mothers, fathers , religious folk , bigoted folk ? 

I do not know enough about the timings, background etc of all this to make a call on whether or not NS has been naive , reckless or stubborn. Neither am I screaming from the rooftops about it , there are many times in my life I have stopped short of condemning people , even when I think they are wrong, because they need my support or there is a bigger picture. Do you think battering the SG and NS on social media is going to help us get independence ? If I had to get my knickers in a twist about every policy I disagreed with there would be not one political party I could vote for. 

Its fine to disagree with it. I have said on here more than once I have a problem with lowering the age on the GRR bill, but I have a problem with other things that has a legal age of 16. I am not happy either with the principle of ‘men’  in women’s prisons. But this is not a new thing. 

There is a however a difference between being unhappy with a decision / policy ,  and trashing the SG in Daily Mail proportions on social media,  if you are looking for independence.  IMO. 

[DOUBLE A]

4 hours ago, Dave78 said:

I tend to agree with you.

What's your thoughts on this guy's advice though. He suggests taking the opposite approach.

Video should start at the relevant bit:

https://www.youtube.com/live/anrKXVE0Xvc?feature=share&t=1427

He is a lot more intelligent than me !!! But can’t disagree with what he said, he also mentioned they they need to start getting a lot more social media savvy to get the word out in a positive manner as just now they are up against 95% of the MSM who portray everything as SNP bad with virtually nothing positive to say.

 

In particular the BBC Scotland news and online are a disgrace, going back to the GRA bill I haven’t seen any of the other parties who voted in favour being interviewed to any degree, would love to have heard from the 3 tories who voted in favour for their views on what Alister Jack did, there was one day on their website that the first 6 stories were SNP or public services being slated with all the opposition parties having there say about where money etc should be paid with them never having to consider where the money was to come from.

 

just to finish there are a lot of things the SNP do that I don’t  agree with but some of the stuff here and online from folk who claim to want independence is a disgrace. 

[DOUBLE A]

44 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

No , I never saw it coming. The only social media I use is here. In my real life, no one has ever mentioned GRR or men in womens prisons, despite the fact it has been going on for years. The reaction to this, in relation to the changes that are being made and the number of people affected, is massively out of proportion and are, without a shadow of a doubt, being manipulated for political gain. Oh for the day folk get this animated about £47 million of uk cabinet expenses or minesterial codes being broken right left and centre. Does not that affect mothers, fathers , religious folk , bigoted folk ? 

I do not know enough about the timings, background etc of all this to make a call on whether or not NS has been naive , reckless or stubborn. Neither am I screaming from the rooftops about it , there are many times in my life I have stopped short of condemning people , even when I think they are wrong, because they need my support or there is a bigger picture. Do you think battering the SG and NS on social media is going to help us get independence ? If I had to get my knickers in a twist about every policy I disagreed with there would be not one political party I could vote for. 

Its fine to disagree with it. I have said on here more than once I have a problem with lowering the age on the GRR bill, but I have a problem with other things that has a legal age of 16. I am not happy either with the principle of ‘men’  in women’s prisons. But this is not a new thing. 

There is a however a difference between being unhappy with a decision / policy ,  and trashing the SG in Daily Mail proportions on social media,  if you are looking for independence.  IMO. 

What she said ⬆️ 

[phart]

4 hours ago, Dave78 said:

Good discussion here with Prof Matt Qvortrup on how to build a new Scottish state.

His advice on what the SNP should do next was interesting.

 

https://www.youtube.com/live/anrKXVE0Xvc?feature=share&t=519

I saw his name and thought nice scrabble name, then go to his twitter and it's his name in scrabble letters.

Not really piercing insight into the subject but it was what I thought.

[hampden_loon2878]

2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

No , I never saw it coming. The only social media I use is here. In my real life, no one has ever mentioned GRR or men in womens prisons, despite the fact it has been going on for years. The reaction to this, in relation to the changes that are being made and the number of people affected, is massively out of proportion and are, without a shadow of a doubt, being manipulated for political gain. Oh for the day folk get this animated about £47 million of uk cabinet expenses or minesterial codes being broken right left and centre. Does not that affect mothers, fathers , religious folk , bigoted folk ? 

I do not know enough about the timings, background etc of all this to make a call on whether or not NS has been naive , reckless or stubborn. Neither am I screaming from the rooftops about it , there are many times in my life I have stopped short of condemning people , even when I think they are wrong, because they need my support or there is a bigger picture. Do you think battering the SG and NS on social media is going to help us get independence ? If I had to get my knickers in a twist about every policy I disagreed with there would be not one political party I could vote for. 

Its fine to disagree with it. I have said on here more than once I have a problem with lowering the age on the GRR bill, but I have a problem with other things that has a legal age of 16. I am not happy either with the principle of ‘men’  in women’s prisons. But this is not a new thing. 

There is a however a difference between being unhappy with a decision / policy ,  and trashing the SG in Daily Mail proportions on social media,  if you are looking for independence.  IMO. 

The SNP always had to be squeaky clean and leave no openings for leverage that the media could exploit. This is exactly why, small things can be manipulated into things that just snowball,, 

 

personally I dislike sturgeon but would support her if she was acting in the interests of independence, I think she is close to completely collapsing the movement, so the sooner she steps down the better, let’s hope she doesn’t pull the house down either. It will be interesting tO see if she does 

Edited January 31, 2023 by hampden_loon2878

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

The SNP always had to be squeaky clean and leave no openings for leverage that the media could exploit. This is exactly why, small things can be manipulated into things that just snowball,, 

 

personally I dislike sturgeon but would support her if she was acting in the interests of independence, I think she is close to completely collapsing the movement, so the sooner she steps down the better, let’s hope she doesn’t pull the house down either. It will be interesting tO see if she does 

I've said it before. Sturgeon is either going to go down as one of the greatest Scots in history or one of the worst. The likes of Wings and the loons in Alba think she's a British state asset, others don't question her commitment to independence. I guess only she knows. Maybe independence shouldn't be about one person, even if that first person is FM, maybe if we want it, we all need to do more.

[TDYER63]

16 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

The SNP always had to be squeaky clean and leave no openings for leverage that the media could exploit. This is exactly why, small things can be manipulated into things that just snowball,, 

 

personally I dislike sturgeon but would support her if she was acting in the interests of independence, I think she is close to completely collapsing the movement, so the sooner she steps down the better, let’s hope she doesn’t pull the house down either. It will be interesting tO see if she does 

Its a lot easier to be the guy in the street expecting squeaky clean than to be constantly on top of it. Especially when the world and their granny are out to exploit and twist every aspect. 

I  just dont see a better candidate than NS at the moment, most of the current MSP and MP’s would come nowhere close to holding their own against the barrage of criticism directed at a FM. IMO independence is dead for the foreseeable if she goes whether or not she brings the house down with her. This is not based on any personal feelings for her,  it’s purely based on pragmatic realism and the lack of potential candidates that could take this forward.
Who knows, maybe there is someone in the background who just hasn’t been given enough opportunity to show their worth. 

14 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I've said it before. Sturgeon is either going to go down as one of the greatest Scots in history or one of the worst. The likes of Wings and the loons in Alba think she's a British state asset, others don't question her commitment to independence. I guess only she knows. Maybe independence shouldn't be about one person, even if that first person is FM, maybe if we want it, we all need to do more.

I dont buy this state asset accusation, if she was someone who first appeared on the scene in 2014 perhaps so, but she has been committed to independence since she was young , it is just  too far fetched. 
I totally agree that it shouldn’t be about one person, for no other reason than individuals split opinion. Particularly politicians. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by TDYER63

[hampden_loon2878]

50 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Its a lot easier to be the guy in the street expecting squeaky clean than to be constantly on top of it. Especially when the world and their granny are out to exploit and twist every aspect. 

I  just dont see a better candidate than NS at the moment, most of the current MSP and MP’s would come nowhere close to holding their own against the barrage of criticism directed at a FM. IMO independence is dead for the foreseeable if she goes whether or not she brings the house down with her. This is not based on any personal feelings for her,  it’s purely based on pragmatic realism and the lack of potential candidates that could take this forward.
Who knows, maybe there is someone in the background who just hasn’t been given enough opportunity to show their worth. 

I dont buy this state asset accusation, if she was someone who first appeared on the scene in 2014 perhaps so, but she has been committed to independence since she was young , it is just  too far fetched. 
I totally agree that it shouldn’t be about one person, for no other reason than individuals split opinion. Particularly politicians. 

Independence will need to go on the back burner I am afraid, we would get absolutely smashed if there were a referendum with sturgeon at the helm, there’s not a bit of doubt in my mind about that. This has a 2017(snap election) feel to it however in 2017 folk just didn’t vote and returned the following election,, I see a real bite just now with voters unlikely to return to the snp

[hampden_loon2878]

The DRS scheme will closely follow this calamity of legislation, if the infrastructure is not there for it then it may be her last straw

[Orraloon]

3 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Independence will need to go on the back burner I am afraid, we would get absolutely smashed if there were a referendum with sturgeon at the helm, there’s not a bit of doubt in my mind about that. This has a 2017(snap election) feel to it however in 2017 folk just didn’t vote and returned the following election,, I see a real bite just now with voters unlikely to return to the snp

So, you want to get a referendum ASAP but you are totally convinced we would lose it if we got one?

And you think Sturgeon is the British State asset. Holy fuk. 😉😂

Edited February 1, 2023 by Orraloon

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

The DRS scheme will closely follow this calamity of legislation, if the infrastructure is not there for it then it may be her last straw

It doesn’t really help  that we are the UK guinea pig on this. 
And apart from the infrastructure issue I am not really sure this is the best way of dealing with recycling. For example, if I am correct, I buy a box with 24 cans of coke from Morrisons I am now getting charged an extra £4.80 which I get back if I take my cans to the retailer or RVM rather than just put them in my recycling bin like I usually do ? 

I can see the principle has good intentions, and may actually encourage some health improvements in my case….., but adding an extra 20p to every drink when household costs are already through the roof may not go down too well. 

You would think there would be a less cumbersome way to encourage recycling for those who are not yet buying into it rather than penalise those who are already doing their bit, although we do need to keep at it and  to be bold .  
It might be successful after the initial settling in period as it seems to work in other countries. 

[Orraloon]

10 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

It doesn’t really help  that we are the UK guinea pig on this. 
And apart from the infrastructure issue I am not really sure this is the best way of dealing with recycling. For example, if I am correct, I buy a box with 24 cans of coke from Morrisons I am now getting charged an extra £4.80 which I get back if I take my cans to the retailer or RVM rather than just put them in my recycling bin like I usually do ? 

I can see the principle has good intentions, and may actually encourage some health improvements in my case….., but adding an extra 20p to every drink when household costs are already through the roof may not go down too well. 

You would think there would be a less cumbersome way to encourage recycling for those who are not yet buying into it rather than penalise those who are already doing their bit, although we do need to keep at it and  to be bold .  
It might be successful after the initial settling in period as it seems to work in other countries. 

It's also a tiny part of the production chain. IMO they are tackling this from the wrong end. 

But it's also another issue which has got next to nothing to do with independence. This is a global problem.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Orraloon

[TDYER63]

3 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It's also a tiny part of the production chain. IMO they are tackling this from the wrong end. 

But it's also another issue which has got next to nothing to do with independence. This is a global problem.

I agree its not directly related to independence , but I can see Loon’s point that it just takes a load of negative publicity directed at the SG to chip away at potential voters.

If successful however it could be a coup as it will show we can be bold and do our own thing,  and after-all it’s fundamentally trying to encourage good habits. 

Out of interest what do you think would be a better alternative? 

[aaid]

43 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

It doesn’t really help  that we are the UK guinea pig on this. 
And apart from the infrastructure issue I am not really sure this is the best way of dealing with recycling. For example, if I am correct, I buy a box with 24 cans of coke from Morrisons I am now getting charged an extra £4.80 which I get back if I take my cans to the retailer or RVM rather than just put them in my recycling bin like I usually do ? 

I can see the principle has good intentions, and may actually encourage some health improvements in my case….., but adding an extra 20p to every drink when household costs are already through the roof may not go down too well. 

You would think there would be a less cumbersome way to encourage recycling for those who are not yet buying into it rather than penalise those who are already doing their bit, although we do need to keep at it and  to be bold .  
It might be successful after the initial settling in period as it seems to work in other countries. 

Let’s be honest about this “business” moans and complains about any form of new regulation, minimum unit pricing, paying for plastic bags, smoking ban, car parking restrictions, etc., etc, forecasting doom and gloom, massive job losses, businesses going into liquidation and it never happens. 

[TDYER63]

56 minutes ago, aaid said:

Let’s be honest about this “business” moans and complains about any form of new regulation, minimum unit pricing, paying for plastic bags, smoking ban, car parking restrictions, etc., etc, forecasting doom and gloom, massive job losses, businesses going into liquidation and it never happens. 

I wasn’t talking about ‘business’. I was talking about the folk who already recycle things. Do you think its a forward step to , instead of asking them to pay the current cost of all drinks from 50ml-3l litres and recycle in their home bins, tell them they have to pay 20p more per item and take these bottles somewhere else, or forfeit a refund of the extra cost ? 
 

 

[aaid]

6 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I wasn’t talking about ‘business’. I was talking about the folk who already recycle things. Do you think its a forward step to , instead of asking them to pay the current cost of all drinks from 50ml-3l litres and recycle in their home bins, tell them they have to pay 20p more per item and take these bottles somewhere else, or forfeit a refund of the extra cost ? 
 

 

Yes I do.  It works perfectly well in Germany.  I went to my local Tescos today, whichever way I take to get there walk, car, public transport, bicycle (my actual transport, I need to be able carry two, full two litre bottles of Irn Bru - what I actually bought.  It would be no big deal for me to take the two empty ones there beforehand.  Don’t be so lazy. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by aaid