Indyref 2 (2)

[Squirrelhumper]

41 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Give people a vote now, even those enraged at Sturgeon because of GRR and I’d guess most would still vote yes. 

Be quite a few who wouldn't and we can ill afford to lose voters.

She's all over the place on this.  Whether her happy clappers admit it or not. 

[Squirrelhumper]

42 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Who set the trap? Seems entirely self inflicted. 

Agreed. 

[Squirrelhumper]

25 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

So the Tories? What a surprise 😂

Easier to blame others than take ownership yourself. 

[slasher]

14 minutes ago, aaid said:

By the same perspective, do you also allow a pressure group to stop legislation that is in train.

I'll give you the benefit of looking at it from the position where we are - where all you see is opposition but no support for the bill - there is another side to the coin here, that's all I am saying.

None of that changes the fact that they (snp) have tip toed knowingly into a minefield and now seem surprised at the explosions going off all over the place. Any party whose absolute priority was independence would have steered clear of this.

[scotlad]

23 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

So the Tories? What a surprise 😂

They're the only mainstream party in the UK not fighting among itself over this issue.  They're also the incumbent government of a country who would benefit hugely from the SNP imploding, given that the SNP's original mission would result in that country no longer existing in its current form.

I know "it's the Tories" seems like a bit of a cop-out to the point where it's a virtual cliche but sometimes - quite a lot of the time in fact - it really is the Tories.

[Orraloon]

6 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Be quite a few who wouldn't and we can ill afford to lose voters.

She's all over the place on this.  Whether her happy clappers admit it or not. 

I think SNP policy on this has been totally consistent. Whether we agree or disagree with the policy Is a different matter but I can't see how SNP policy has changed. 

[Orraloon]

8 minutes ago, scotlad said:

They're the only mainstream party in the UK not fighting among itself over this issue.  They're also the incumbent government of a country who would benefit hugely from the SNP imploding, given that the SNP's original mission would result in that country no longer existing in its current form.

I know "it's the Tories" seems like a bit of a cop-out to the point where it's a virtual cliche but sometimes - quite a lot of the time in fact - it really is the Tories.

Only because they have too many other things to fight amongst themselves about. 

[aaid]

15 minutes ago, slasher said:

None of that changes the fact that they (snp) have tip toed knowingly into a minefield and now seem surprised at the explosions going off all over the place. Any party whose absolute priority was independence would have steered clear of this.

It's only a couple of weeks ago that people were suggesting it was all part of a grand plan to provoke a constitutional crisis.

[ParisInAKilt]

13 minutes ago, scotlad said:

They're the only mainstream party in the UK not fighting among itself over this issue.  They're also the incumbent government of a country who would benefit hugely from the SNP imploding, given that the SNP's original mission would result in that country no longer existing in its current form.

I know "it's the Tories" seems like a bit of a cop-out to the point where it's a virtual cliche but sometimes - quite a lot of the time in fact - it really is the Tories.

Aaid will correct me if I’m wrong but his post seemed to imply that the Tories uturn on GRR has led to all this drama but there’s been opposition towards it from the get go and they’ve been warned that it could be argued it will affect the equality act etc. 

[ParisInAKilt]

24 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Be quite a few who wouldn't and we can ill afford to lose voters.

She's all over the place on this.  Whether her happy clappers admit it or not. 

We can’t, maybe I’m being naive but in the privacy of the voters booth I still think these people would vote yes. 

Long away from that opportunity though. 

[aaid]

Just now, ParisInAKilt said:

Aaid will correct me if I’m wrong but his post seemed to imply that the Tories uturn on GRR has led to all this drama but there’s been opposition towards it from the get go and they’ve been warned that it could be argued it will affect the equality act etc. 

Not exactly.  What I am saying is that should they have followed the Tory lead and carried out a 180 U turn, or should they have continued along the path they were going.   Any decision at that point would have had ramifications.  They've chosen the path they did do, I suspect they expected most of what has happened, with the exception of the section 35 - and we will see how that pans out.

Most of this stuff is a conflated bollocks anyway.   The SPS have been working on the presumption of self-ID since 2014 for a start - and yet its suddenly only become a problem now.

[ParisInAKilt]

11 minutes ago, aaid said:

Not exactly.  What I am saying is that should they have followed the Tory lead and carried out a 180 U turn, or should they have continued along the path they were going.   Any decision at that point would have had ramifications.  They've chosen the path they did do, I suspect they expected most of what has happened, with the exception of the section 35 - and we will see how that pans out.

Most of this stuff is a conflated bollocks anyway.   The SPS have been working on the presumption of self-ID since 2014 for a start - and yet its suddenly only become a problem now.

Agreed. 

This is just gonna run and run, hard to see an amicable solution unfortunately. 

[Alibi]

I remember the fuss when various folk were voted off the NEC and Sturgeon promptly had them reinstated - there was some dodgy process that involved folk like Mhairi Hunter & Rhiannon Spear (I think) being allowed to attend as representatives of certain groups that were pushing gender issues, in effect rigging the results voted for by the members.

Sturgeon has now contradicted her own "TWAW" mantra by getting a transwoman sent to a men's prison.  The whole edifice has collapsed and she is caught in an illogical loop, a Mobius strip where trans people are now Schroedinger's transpeople, oscillating between being men and women.  Interesting to see how she's going to get out of this mess without blinking.  I'd say she's in a bit of bother here.  Ironic that the whole thing has happened under the old UK legislation which was presumably a pragmatic solution - the insistence on TWAW seems to be the thing that causes the whole thing to burst into flame - maybe they should just have continued with a pragmatic approach rather than a dogmatic one.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Alibi

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, Alibi said:

I remember the fuss when various folk were voted off the NEC and Sturgeon promptly had them reinstated - there was some dodgy process that involved folk like Mhairi Hunter & Rhiannon Spear (I think) being allowed to attend as representatives of certain groups that were pushing gender issues, in effect rigging the results voted for by the members.

It was Fiona Robertson - someone will correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t recall Mhairi Hunter being on the NEC, not recently certainly.

The problem here is the constitution allows certain groups within the party - women, LGBT, BAME, etc - to provide their own representatives and for them to decide who they send.   It’s a little bit like complaining someone lost their constituency seat and then gets elected to Holyrood via the list - them’s the rules. 

The whole thing got very silly and very nasty.

[Freeedom]

Are we still just focusing on the gender legislation? 

When are we going to get our eye on the ball and start talking about indy?

 

[hampden_loon2878]

2 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Give people a vote now, even those enraged at Sturgeon because of GRR and I’d guess most would still vote yes. 

I really don’t know, the GRA has been absolutely poisonous, it has concentrated a really disliked legislation and pinned it against the snp and therefore independence. I hate to say I told the folk on this board so but my fears have nearly came to fruition, and the usual cheerleaders shouting from the side lines that I my opinion was somehow pie in the sky.. tbh I couldn’t give a shit about the policy, I care about independence and the best way to get us there. Sturgeon is either an idiot(I think she is actually very intelligent)  or seen this coming but went for it anyway. So I then ask why has she gone after it with no fucks given to the ramifications on independence? 

[hampden_loon2878]

42 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

Are we still just focusing on the gender legislation? 

When are we going to get our eye on the ball and start talking about indy?

 

Probably when the snp do, let’s be honest, what has been put in place for a referendum this year that was promised. 

[Malcolm]

2 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

The vast majority of people with "wealth" havent earned it or paid much if any tax on it. Wealth is passed from generation to generation. That wealth is usually used to create more wealth and sometimes comes from being in a position to exploit those who dont have wealth.

A classic example being a friend of mine whose grandparent was very succussful and made alot of money, passed it down to his Dad who in turn made more money and then my mates Dad has given loads to him. Despite going to Uni and getting a good degree, he doesnt work in that profession. He used his "wealth" to snap up cheap properties, do abit of work on them and then sell for much more. He also has a load of properties that he rents out. Now society will say he is successful and has "earned" his income and paid tax on it etx but the fact remains that he was only in a position to do so because of his family wealth allowing him to go and buy numerous properties without mortgages etc.

Im not saying that you shouldnt be allowed to hand stuff down to your kids etc but when dealing with vast wealth there has to be a better way to redistribute the money whilst leaving enough for the rich children.

I don’t agree with that I’m afraid.  If you make money you are already taxed via inheritance tax and why shouldn’t you pass on your success to your offspring.

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

It was Fiona Robertson - someone will correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t recall Mhairi Hunter being on the NEC, not recently certainly.

The problem here is the constitution allows certain groups within the party - women, LGBT, BAME, etc - to provide their own representatives and for them to decide who they send.   It’s a little bit like complaining someone lost their constituency seat and then gets elected to Holyrood via the list - them’s the rules. 

The whole thing got very silly and very nasty.

That's it, Fiona Robertson.  I think Graeme Campbell was another one.  Anyway the whole business left a very bad impression of democracy within the party.  And why should all these niche special interest groups be represented while the vast majority of members aren't?  the rules need to be amended to get the party back to the days when branches had a meaningful say in policy.

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, Alibi said:

That's it, Fiona Robertson.  I think Graeme Campbell was another one.  Anyway the whole business left a very bad impression of democracy within the party.  And why should all these niche special interest groups be represented while the vast majority of members aren't?  the rules need to be amended to get the party back to the days when branches had a meaningful say in policy.

To be fair, it was a gender critical special interest group that used weaknesses in the party constitution to be elected to a number of positions that year - the Women’s Pledge group.  Again, those are/were the rules so I’m not complaining but you can’t have it both ways. 

[Dave78]

2 hours ago, Alibi said:

 

Sturgeon has now contradicted her own "TWAW" mantra by getting a transwoman sent to a men's prison.  The whole edifice has collapsed and she is caught in an illogical loop, a Mobius strip where trans people are now Schroedinger's transpeople, oscillating between being men and women. 

Haven't there always been readily accepted exceptions to the TWAW statement though? For example, in sport.

I don't see this as the zinger some folk seem to think it is. Just seems logical and pragmatic to me.

[DOUBLE A]

1 hour ago, Freeedom said:

Are we still just focusing on the gender legislation? 

When are we going to get our eye on the ball and start talking about indy?

 

Good luck, think that’s the 3rd time you’ve tried to move this thread to the non stop childish bickering about how bad/good Sturgeon and the rest are and how the GRA is good/bad etc etc, but no doubt that will continue. 
 

For me the thing that will either make or break things is money, if people can be convinced that they won’t be a lot worse off after independence as think that’s why a lot of folk late on the last time moved from yes to no 

[Dave78]

Good discussion here with Prof Matt Qvortrup on how to build a new Scottish state.

His advice on what the SNP should do next was interesting.

 

https://www.youtube.com/live/anrKXVE0Xvc?feature=share&t=519

[Dave78]

3 minutes ago, DOUBLE A said:

 

For me the thing that will either make or break things is money, if people can be convinced that they won’t be a lot worse off after independence as think that’s why a lot of folk late on the last time moved from yes to no 

I tend to agree with you.

What's your thoughts on this guy's advice though. He suggests taking the opposite approach.

Video should start at the relevant bit:

https://www.youtube.com/live/anrKXVE0Xvc?feature=share&t=1427

[Diamond Scot]

41 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I don’t agree with that I’m afraid.  If you make money you are already taxed via inheritance tax and why shouldn’t you pass on your success to your offspring.

Im not saying you shouldnt pass your wealth onto your offspring.

Im saying there has to be a better system for taxing what the offspring do with the wealth. My mate for example pays very little tax as all he is doing is buying houses and either doing them up renting them. His story will be replicated many times up and down the country. Personally I dont believe that people or companies should be able to own multiple properties. Id put an increasing tax that would make owning more than 3 or 4 properties not worthwhile. That way somebody could have a 2nd home and 1 or 2 properties to either do up or rent out. But would do away with the hoarding of properties which drive up rent costs and property costs.