Hope Over Fear - George Square Today

[tomtscotland]

tomtscotland showing why the dogma of nationalism will never accept democratic votes against nationalism. For new powers and evolution of Scottish Parliament hardline nationalists will do anything to disrupt the process and bleat their politics of unfairness. The SNP and UKIP share a lot in this type of politics.

I argued against the points you were making re democracy, fairness and transparency.

I note that rather than dispute my arguments you have resorted to the usual Unionist tactic of innuendo and smear. This means you have lost the argument.

I despise Westminster and UKIP in equal measure but it is ironic that you brought UKIP into the equation seeing as how the media and Westminster are dancing to their tune and that is part of being "Better Together" - so you and the rest of the Unionists just need to suck it up.

Edited October 14, 2014 by tomtscotland

[Rossy]

The Cringers are annoyed that the huge number of people who weren't scared and who want the absolute best for Scotland, won't shut up and go back in their box.

You see it in the bile they post in newspaper columns, and the ridiculous 'accept the result' utterances from Unionist politicians.

They thought that a No vote vote would kill off independence, but now (and it seems to be a common theme for them), they're worried and nervous again.

[Saltirescot]

Thanks. Also sounds like the crowd was larger than 6k over the whole afternoon.

I have been thinking about the democracy vigil that was set up outside St Andrews House after the election in 1992 - it stayed there until we voted for our own parliament in 1997. Wondering if anyone is planning to do something similar?

As one of the people who was heavily involved in 'The Vigil' outside the old High School thanks so much for remembering us. I cant see how it would work this time around though as after all like it or not this was a Yes/No democratic vote across all of Scotland which the good guys lost sadly.

I have been abroad recently (North of Tenerife) as well and it is amazing how perceptions of Scotland have changed. People from normal countries especially smaller ones just regard as rather weak and ineffectual people and cant really comprehend how we wouldn't want to run our own lives just as normal countries do.

I am thinking about digging out a Yes badge next time I go on holiday as it is a bit embarrassing saying 'from Scotland' when the other person if he has any political nuance about him just looks at you rather knowingly.

[Saltirescot]

Thanks. Also sounds like the crowd was larger than 6k over the whole afternoon.

I have been thinking about the democracy vigil that was set up outside St Andrews House after the election in 1992 - it stayed there until we voted for our own parliament in 1997. Wondering if anyone is planning to do something similar?

As one of the people who was heavily involved in 'The Vigil' outside the old Royal High School in Edinburgh thanks so much for remembering us though I cant see how it would work this time around though as after all like it or not this was a Yes/No democratic vote across all of Scotland which the good guys lost sadly.

I have been abroad recently as well (North of Tenerife) as well and it is amazing how perceptions of Scotland have changed.

People from normal countries especially smaller ones just regard us rather weak and ineffectual people and cant really comprehend how we wouldn't want to run our own lives just as normal countries do.

I am thinking about digging out a Yes badge next time I go on holiday as it is a bit wearing saying 'from Scotland' when the other person if he has any political nuance about him just looks at you rather knowingly.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Saltirescot

[ParisInAKilt]

I've had the sympathetic head tilt when telling people I'm from Scotland or when people pick up the accent. Surprised by most who know about the impact the establishment had on the vote.

Arguably the best chat was with an elderly chronically psychotic patient (work in a psych ward) said she was glad it was a no vote to wind me up

Edited October 14, 2014 by ParisInAKilt

[thplinth]

The Cringers are annoyed that the huge number of people who weren't scared and who want the absolute best for Scotland, won't shut up and go back in their box.

You see it in the bile they post in newspaper columns, and the ridiculous 'accept the result' utterances from Unionist politicians.

They thought that a No vote vote would kill off independence, but now (and it seems to be a common theme for them), they're worried and nervous again.

I swear I saw a new member logged in earlier called "time to move on".

The more shrill and bossy they become they more I am enjoying doing the the exact opposite.

the cheated vote, the revisionist history afterwards and the getting over it and moving on. Those are all things that might have happened had the UK establishment acted with integrity and honesty and let a fair vote take place. But they didn't and so they won't.

[weekevie04]

I've had the sympathetic head tilt when telling people I'm from Scotland or when people pick up the accent. Surprised by most who know about the impact the establishment had on the vote.

Arguably the best chat was with an elderly chronically psychotic patient (work in a psych ward) said she was glad it was a no vote to wind me up

A guy I know works in Belgium sometimes and was there for a few days and he was mistaken for Irish a few times. He just went with it and didn't bother correcting them as he couldn't be done with the pitying looks (his own words) he previously received for saying he was from Scotland.

[the_burger]

I can't fathom why some people are so offended/upset about continuing the Yes movement and staying active. It's all peaceful stuff, and most people genuinely believe they are pushing for a better future? I could see the point if they were rioting or espousing hate.

fair dos have a go about tommy for his misdemeanors or debate/argue about the ideology behind it, but we all have the right to freedom of expression and are 'moving on' by continuing the cause.

Also it's a bit inane commenting on the fact that a few years ago most people weren't politically active or didn't talk about these things. Surely it's a good thing people are getting involved? Regardless of your views, we shouldn't just be accepting the deterministic arguments of the establishment. I have many friends who knew little about politics even a few months ago but are now getting clued up/joining parties/attending rallies. It's great to see and hear.

finally people are waking up to the neocons and hopefully the writing is on the wall for them. The continuation of the movement is happening for a reason, even if you don't like it. Whether we get an indy country or can force some progressive change within the current set up, this is the way to go about it

[the_burger]

For 'move on' read 'let's just go back to accepting the deterministic arguments if the establishment'

And so what if people didn't talk about politics a few years ago and are now engaged? Can only be a good thing.

[Alibi]

As one of the people who was heavily involved in 'The Vigil' outside the old Royal High School in Edinburgh thanks so much for remembering us though I cant see how it would work this time around though as after all like it or not this was a Yes/No democratic vote across all of Scotland which the good guys lost sadly.

I have been abroad recently as well (North of Tenerife) as well and it is amazing how perceptions of Scotland have changed.

People from normal countries especially smaller ones just regard us rather weak and ineffectual people and cant really comprehend how we wouldn't want to run our own lives just as normal countries do.

I am thinking about digging out a Yes badge next time I go on holiday as it is a bit wearing saying 'from Scotland' when the other person if he has any political nuance about him just looks at you rather knowingly.

I have a couple of Yes t-shirts and I'm going to get "I voted" added above the Yes. The no voters have shamed Scotland in the eyes of the rest of the world. For me, there will be no reconciliation with them as far as matters political are concerned. At least not until they realise they were wrong.

Interesting to see the large number of Yes badges at Ibrox on Saturday, and the louder than normal volume of the singing of FoS (might be because the acoustics are better than Hampden I suppose).

You wonder where all these No voters came from because the votes cast bore no relation to what the canvassing returns were showing. It's almost as if someone had pre-printed a huge number of no votes on fake ballot papers to swing the result, but of course nobody would even think of doing something like that.

[Alan]

Underlining a sentence does not make it a fact.

Civic nationalism failed as surveys proved voters born in rest of UK and those outside UK rejected independence.

SNP had their chance. Now with new political and tax raising powers they will need to act more mature instead of blaming London (England) for all. It's the same what UKIP does with Brussels (Europe and/or foreigners).

The UK was lucky in the past as it had boring mainstream fairly central democracy. Different parties had different views but the spheres of their political ideology would often overlap so it would usually be down to what to tax and how to spend.

Unfortunately the 2 parties I've mentioned are very clever at using unhappiness and disquiet while ignoring the economic realities of the modern world. Have you ever heard an SNP politician mention debt burden that UK, Scotland, whole of western world have? Did SNP make any sense in past with their support of uro currency and their Plan McB? The SNP White Paper was devoid of detail excluding the redistribution of income via Corp Tax cut. The same with the policies of UKIP which have huge holes. Instead they stigmatise opponents and denigrate any opposition to which damages democracy. The public get blinded by dogma and lose visibility of bread and butter issues.

[ParisInAKilt]

Always find it funny when no supporters mock the SNP and yes supporters for blaming Scotland's woes on Westminster. The key drive for independence was to stop this happening and take responsibility for Scotland's success and failures.

You're having a laugh if you think these new powers will make a blind bit of difference

[adamntg]

Have you ever heard an SNP politician mention debt burden that UK, Scotland, whole of western world have?

Yep. All the time.

[thplinth]

SNP had their chance.

The SNP did not have the chance, Scotland chose to have the chance because Scotland returned a 70 seat majority for a party committed to a referendum.

And if Scotland wants another chance in 5 or 10 years say Scotland just has to reassert a new mandate for it.

That is called democracy Alan, get used to it.

[ParisInAKilt]

Civic nationalism failed as surveys proved voters born in rest of UK and those outside UK rejected independence.

How is that relevant to what the people of Scotland want?

I'll accept that in 2014 the majority of Scotland rejected self determination but two key points:

- the manner of the victory (fear, not hope) and the 'vow'

- and the demographics, the under 50's voted yes in the majority.

If and when these new powers and promises from Labour in particular (social justice is best achieved with a no vote, Milliband September 2014) fail to make the changes Scotland want then there will be another vote and it won't fail

[thplinth]

Your favoured party Alan which you keep well hidden while constantly attacking the SNP - i.e. the Conservative Party - are possibly going to take us out of Europe to save their own political bacon down south.

They are also the ones who will likely welch on The Vow.

Two things alone which could easily bring about a new SNP mandate sooner rather than later.

You want your political cake and eat it at the same time.

[tomtscotland]

Underlining a sentence does not make it a fact.

Civic nationalism failed as surveys proved voters born in rest of UK and those outside UK rejected independence.

SNP had their chance. Now with new political and tax raising powers they will need to act more mature instead of blaming London (England) for all. It's the same what UKIP does with Brussels (Europe and/or foreigners).

The UK was lucky in the past as it had boring mainstream fairly central democracy. Different parties had different views but the spheres of their political ideology would often overlap so it would usually be down to what to tax and how to spend.

Unfortunately the 2 parties I've mentioned are very clever at using unhappiness and disquiet while ignoring the economic realities of the modern world. Have you ever heard an SNP politician mention debt burden that UK, Scotland, whole of western world have? Did SNP make any sense in past with their support of uro currency and their Plan McB? The SNP White Paper was devoid of detail excluding the redistribution of income via Corp Tax cut. The same with the policies of UKIP which have huge holes. Instead they stigmatise opponents and denigrate any opposition to which damages democracy. The public get blinded by dogma and lose visibility of bread and butter issues.

Alan - you've lost the argument and now you've lost the plot.

As you are going away off on other tangents the only conclusion is that you can not justify your previous, arguments that the vote was democratic, fair and transparent - so you have indeed lost the argument.

Go ahead and have your little rant .... but you are not convincing anyone to move on or even give your arguments for so doing any credence.

Edited October 14, 2014 by tomtscotland

[jailender]

Oops wrong thread

Edited October 14, 2014 by jailender

[EvilScotsman]

Underlining a sentence does not make it a fact.

Civic nationalism failed as surveys proved voters born in rest of UK and those outside UK rejected independence.

SNP had their chance. Now with new political and tax raising powers they will need to act more mature instead of blaming London (England) for all. It's the same what UKIP does with Brussels (Europe and/or foreigners).

The UK was lucky in the past as it had boring mainstream fairly central democracy. Different parties had different views but the spheres of their political ideology would often overlap so it would usually be down to what to tax and how to spend.

Unfortunately the 2 parties I've mentioned are very clever at using unhappiness and disquiet while ignoring the economic realities of the modern world. Have you ever heard an SNP politician mention debt burden that UK, Scotland, whole of western world have? Did SNP make any sense in past with their support of uro currency and their Plan McB? The SNP White Paper was devoid of detail excluding the redistribution of income via Corp Tax cut. The same with the policies of UKIP which have huge holes. Instead they stigmatise opponents and denigrate any opposition to which damages democracy. The public get blinded by dogma and lose visibility of bread and butter issues.

The SNP's White Paper pointed out that Scotland would not have the debt burden which the UK currently does, as iScotland would have run at a comfortable surplus.

[thplinth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Scotland#Birth_and_mortality

Those figures suggest a churn of 54,000 per year - i.e. 54,000 deaths and 58,000 births per year

Considering it was the over 65+ demographic who voted heavily No it would mean in 10 years from now approximately 500,000+ of them would likely be dead (not all deaths would be over 65+) and 550,000 or so new 16 year olds would become eligible to vote.

[andreimack]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Scotland#Birth_and_mortality

Those figures suggest a churn of 54,000 per year - i.e. 54,000 deaths and 58,000 births per year

Considering it was the over 65+ demographic who voted heavily No it would mean in 10 years from now approximately 500,000+ of them would likely be dead (not all deaths would be over 65+) and 550,000 or so new 16 year olds would become eligible to vote.

Yeah but by that rational then 500,000 50+ voters will be 65 and worried about their pensions and would be in the same boat as the current crop. Also the 16/17 year olds did not overwhelmingly vote yes either.

[Toepoke]

You wonder where all these No voters came from because the votes cast bore no relation to what the canvassing returns were showing.

Depends where you were canvassing I suppose. There was a definite West/East split (with the exception of Dundee)...

[thplinth]

Yeah but by that rational then 500,000 50+ voters will be 65 and worried about their pensions and would be in the same boat as the current crop. Also the 16/17 year olds did not overwhelmingly vote yes either.

I think that will mostly pass with this particular generation and not be inherited by the new younger ones coming through. I think these 65+ today were No's all through their lives.

[Lamia]

You're right I don't understand. Yes was a great marketing project. Promised all things to all. It had its chance. A devolved Scottish Parliament in a UK is the settled will of the Scottish people. Time for politicians to get back to the good old boring stuff and working out what to tax and how to spend it.

Yeah because whenever people are in a minority they should just shut up about it. What a different world we would live in if that was how democracy worked

[Alibi]

Depends where you were canvassing I suppose. There was a definite West/East split (with the exception of Dundee)...

Dumfries. You don't get much less fertile territory for Yes than this area, but the day before the vote I was handing out wee blue books in the High Street and practically everyone was saying they were voting Yes or had voted yes by post. There were some No voters of course (one or two quite aggressive) but the clear impression was that there were a lot more Yes voters than no voters passing through the town centre. If it was like that in this area, goodness knows what it must have been like further north. As I say, the result didn't seem to tally with the canvassing on the ground. Bit strange.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Alibi